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  1. #11
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I should also mention that the ego here comes from the unconscious, primitive or infantile motivation.

    I don't see him, realistically, as judging the boss at all.

    Let's look at your question another way. If the bloke was a perceiver (let's say ESFP) and also a type-watcher, then he would see him as... let's say, feral.
    hmmm ok. I'll have to give it some thought.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    hmmm ok. I'll have to give it some thought.
    It's really not that complicated.

    Jung is simply saying that Judgers are better at finding a person's dominant function than Perceivers.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    In Jungian cognition:
    Judger = Egoic or ego-dominant judging e.g. Te, Ti, Fe, Fi
    Perceiver = Eogic or ego-dominant perceiving e.g. Ni, Ne, Se, Si

    This has little to nothing to do with the MBTI letter code of J/P that seems to be indicated in the OP.

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  4. #14
    morose bourgeoisie
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    We disagree because typology is a weak construct.

  5. #15
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Mostly we disagree because:
    1. Typing people is difficult, even with a proper test/assessment.
    2. People often think they know more than they do.
    3. There is a general lack of knowledge of reliable methods for assessing someone's type.

    There are a few people who seem to be pretty good at this on the forum. @Speed Gavroche is one example.

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  6. #16
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    In Jungian cognition:
    Judger = Egoic or ego-dominant judging e.g. Te, Ti, Fe, Fi
    Perceiver = Eogic or ego-dominant perceiving e.g. Ni, Ne, Se, Si

    This has little to nothing to do with the MBTI letter code of J/P that seems to be indicated in the OP.
    I dealt with this criticism in the first page of the thread. The Jung quote isn't related to Socionics theory. Judging and perceiving are externalized functions, and indeed, the quote concerned typing others.

    "Naturally it [difficulty observing type] depends very largely also upon the attitude of the observer, whether he lays hold of the conscious or the unconscious character of a personality. Speaking generally a judging observer will tend to seize the conscious character, while a perceptive observer will be influenced more by the unconscious character, since judgment is chiefly interested in the conscious motivation of the psychic process, while perception tends to register the mere happening." (Psychological Types, 427.)
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I dealt with this criticism in the first page of the thread. The Jung quote isn't related to Socionics theory. Judging and perceiving are externalized functions, and indeed, the quote concerned typing others.
    I never mentioned socionics or socionics theory, nor did I mention MBTI. I am simply stating the very basics of Jungian cognition and why S and N are considered irrational and T and F rational.

    "Naturally it [difficulty observing type] depends very largely also upon the attitude of the observer, whether he lays hold of the conscious or the unconscious character of a personality. Speaking generally a judging observer will tend to seize the conscious character, while a perceptive observer will be influenced more by the unconscious character, since judgment is chiefly interested in the conscious motivation of the psychic process, while perception tends to register the mere happening." (Psychological Types, 427.)
    By the way, what you are describing here is actually not in disagreement with what I wrote. I think you don't understand what Jung meant by judging and perceiving. Perceivers, as in, those that lead with S and N, are irrational types, they simply observe mere happenings. Why? They lead with perception. Rational types lead with judgement, so they will try to filter all information through various systems, may they be logical or ethical in nature.

    You are confusing MBTI terminology and theory with pure Jungian theory. What Jung wrote in the quote you provided doesn't apply to MBTI introverts. It's exactly what OrangeAppled wrote. An INTP is a judger first, perceiver second, because he is Ti dominant, not Ne dominant.

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  8. #18
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    I never mentioned socionics or socionics theory, nor did I mention MBTI. I am simply stating the very basics of Jungian cognition and why S and N are considered irrational and T and F rational.

    By the way, what you are describing here is actually not in disagreement with what I wrote. I think you don't understand what Jung meant by judging and perceiving. Perceivers, as in, those that lead with S and N, are irrational types, they simply observe mere happenings. Why? They lead with perception. Rational types lead with judgement, so they will try to filter all information through various systems, may they be logical or ethical in nature.

    You are confusing MBTI terminology and theory with pure Jungian theory. What Jung wrote in the quote you provided doesn't apply to MBTI introverts. It's exactly what OrangeAppled wrote. An INTP is a judger first, perceiver second, because he is Ti dominant, not Ne dominant.
    I know all this. But the INTP is a subjective judger, whereas the person in Jung's example is judging objective facts. So the INTP will be using objective perception.
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  9. #19
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I am confused as to how you are using "judgers". You sort of imply you are a perceiver & not a judger, but you apparently identify as Ti-dom which is a judging type...? Or are you referring specifically to extroverted judging & extroverted perceiving?
    Yeah, Ti doms are judgers in Jung's system, because Ti is a judging (or rational, as he calls it) function. This is why in socionics, an MBTI INTP is an INTj.
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  10. #20
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Yeah, Ti doms are judgers in Jung's system, because Ti is a judging (or rational, as he calls it) function. This is why in socionics, an MBTI INTP is an INTj.
    It doesn't matter if you call them "doms." Ti is a judging function - according to Jung, subjective judging. Whereas, type calling is an objectively-oriented judgment in Jung's example.

    Of relevant matter here is the lack of real-world (objective) judgment of the INTP/INFP/ISTP/ISFP types. Their judgment is more effective when oriented inward - on value-systems or logic-systems. Externally, when making type calls, they don't see type the same way as the external judgers.

    My theory also explains why some people on this forum are great at typing others, but lousy at typing themselves. The latter is a subjectively-oriented process of determining type, since we can't very well see ourselves from the outside.
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