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  1. #1
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Default "Judgment is Perception Stilled"

    A bubble of perception gets trapped, somehow, and that bubble is what we call judgment.

    Judgment after all is never judgment of the thing itself but some determination based on perception of the thing itself. So in some sense it's tautological to say judgment is perception brought to a halt. But what makes the stillness?

    Personally I think of introversion and extroversion by themselves as impersonal, mostly unstoppable directions of attention. By existing together they create a potential third kind of attention, and perhaps we can call it consciousness, or the beginnings of consciousness, where the external and the internal are addressed from the point of view of the other. And the beginnings of judgments in general occur at those points where one instance of a drive to attend in one direction is halted or compensated for by one instance of a drive to attend in the other direction. It's a survival mechanism of sorts, probably non-conscious but vital to our existence. If there were no such check in drive, the third position would disappear.

    So, that's judgment?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  2. #2
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I mean, after all, what would enable choice? How does it happen? Obviously it exists, but what's its substance?

    Determinism, particularly given physics broadly construed, points out that we probably have very little control over the antecedents of any given choice. Body chemistry, history, the grand spinning top of everything that isn't you, and you're making free choices? But yes, we are. And probably only because this third position exists as part of the system too. But what is judgment?

    Let's imagine, say, a conscious appreciation of a sunset. Let's imagine that on this particular day, in this particular head, the appreciation is being generated as Se. The person, if there is one, is soaking in the colours, and shapes, and how they're arranged. the entire canvas becomes fascinating. You, as an outside observer imagining this scene, will probably notice that in the scene awareness of self is slipping away. How is the person making any distinction between the sunset outside of themselves and the sensation of increasing chill in the air? How are they choosing what to look at? What is directing their attention? Where is "the person" in this story?

    As compensation for the excessive outer focus, blammo, some categorization starts up. The person can group together elements of the stream of sensations according to how she decides they fit into an abstract scheme--near, far; hot, cold; orange, blue; sky, sun; etc. If that kind of compensatory leap backwards into inner perception didn't occur, the person would disappear. the entirety of her attention would be drawn outside until there was no way left to recognise an inside space.

    Now, at the time that compensatory action occurs, external perception formally freezes and internal perception starts up. It'd be a tiny little jerk backwards in an otherwise outward plunge. Right there, sez I, is a judgment seed. But a seed of which judgment type, introverted judgment or extroverted? I don't know.


    Might not be true.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #3
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    "Judgment is Perception Stilled"
    This description is perfect to me.
    4w3 6w5 1w2 sx/sp ISFP

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    A lonely island where only what is permitted to move moves, becomes an ideal. Jung

    Kiss Kiss [johari] Bang Bang [nohari]

  4. #4
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Judgment is the stopping of the process of perception. It is not a summation of it. One can judge too early, before perception can yield good results. J closes space, P keeps it open.

  5. #5
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    And judgment, like perception, is some fundamental process that just occurs? Nothing gives rise to it, it's just there, to the greater disappointment of perception?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  6. #6
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Kalach meet socionics...socionics meet Kalach...

    http://www.personalitytypist.com/201...rsus-mbti.html
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  7. #7
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    And judgment, like perception, is some fundamental process that just occurs? Nothing gives rise to it, it's just there, to the greater disappointment of perception?
    No, I would say that judgment is fundamentally different. It requires different faculties than perception. It forms inferences from information. Perception is the gathering and awareness of that information. Data and processing. Judging is optional, depending on the end goal.

  8. #8
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    It is the difference between taking one card at a time from the deck or accepting a whole hand ... between dealing the cards face up or face down ... between sorting them into suits as you go or waiting to see what the best hand is you can make from what you've got.

    Even what is on the cards, if anything.

    Those are the images.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    Kalach meet socionics...socionics meet Kalach...

    http://www.personalitytypist.com/201...rsus-mbti.html

  10. #10
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    This doesn't really seem right to me.

    If I am reading you correctly, @Kalach, you imply Judgement is tied to Perception but that perception can pre-exist on it's own. However, Perception is just as dependent on Judgement, and choice is always an element. Judgement is not something that comes along afterwards and tidies up the mess Perception has created. It is intricately intertwined in the information gathering process.

    If you are watching a sunset, you are choosing to look at the sky whilst ignoring/minimising all other images, sounds, sensations. To have truly unfettered perception would be impossible because you would be taking in near infinite amounts of perceptual data that your brain could never process. So you have to make decisions about what gets your attention at any one moment. In film school they teach you that even in documentary filmmaking, it is a fallacy to believe that you just "show reality". Each shot, each cut, is a representation - a mediated, distortion of reality. Every time you point your camera at something and frame it in a certain way, every time you don't point it in another direction, every time you cut something out in the edit, you are making decisions (consciously or unconsciously) and are altering the reality to suit your purpose. It is all choice. It is all Judgement. It is a Judgement about what is interesting and what is not, what is useful and what is not, what has meaning to you and what does not. Similarly, you choose to look at the sunset rather than the trees, or focus on the feel the wind on you face, or the fact you feel cold or hungry. You also enjoy the sunset because it is beautiful to you, which is attaching meaning to it. Without Judgement you would not be able to evaluate the aesthetic pleasure of the colours and the formations of the clouds - it would just be bland perceptual data; as cold, meaningless and devoid of context as a number. The sunset isn't beautiful in and of itself; it's just refracted light hitting the ozone layer and mass formations of evaporated water droplets. It is only beautiful because you judge it to be so. And it could be said that you only decide to look at it in the first place, to focus your Perception on it, because you have determined that it is beautiful.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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