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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    No, I would say that judgment is fundamentally different. It requires different faculties than perception. It forms inferences from information. Perception is the gathering and awareness of that information. Data and processing. Judging is optional, depending on the end goal.
    But you still have to make the less conscious decision to postpone judgment, which is in a way judgment itself, isn't it? People make inferences constantly, whether they're aware of them or not; it's when they're all pieced together, considered in relation to each other (meta-inference?) and brought to the front of the mind that what conventionally qualifies as a "judgment" has occurred. When, in reality, it's just the end result of the constant, inscrutable interaction between perception and judgment. So I wonder if what we typically consider judgment is instead the stilling of that cooperative process.

    i.e. I don't think that a judgment is always a black-and-white action- or value-oriented conclusion. Sometimes it just tells us what lines of perception to keep open, which to alter, close, etc. Or would this be included in the sub-function of perception, processing, as mentioned above?

    I feel like I'm very off on this, because for some reason, I still haven't grasped the difference between judgment and perception. So I'd like to know if the above corresponds to typical understandings of the two, or if I'm just making stuff up.

  2. #12
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    People, people, people... It's not do you like judgment. It's what is judgment.

    Perception is RELATIVELY easy to understand because it doesn't include an idea of stopping. You just keep perceiving. (That of course is misleading because perception as we here understand so far is typed--you do stop perceiving when you start moving beyond the boundaries of your preferred perception.) Judgment however involves stopping.

    Or seems to.

    Active judgment is dynamic. If you put, say, Te and Se together you get a lot of motion to start with, and "conclusions" changing over time, and I guess eventually you get to some point where enough has been perceived that judgment can stabilize.

    But what's this capturing of the moment business that judgment seems to do? (The "moment" here is construed broadly: there are four kinds of moment--outer physical, outer abstraction, inner physical, inner abstraction.)



    I'm getting an image, in my crystal balls, of a spectrum, and on one end is full on perception, while at the other is static judgment... and people--as in cognitive persons--swinging from one end to the other.

    Not sure if that helps.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #13
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    Reality demands men be hung.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    If you put, say, Te and Se together

  4. #14
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    It seems to me I'd better say this:

    The distinction between judgment and perception is artificial.
    BETWEEN PERCEPTION AND JUDGMENT, THE DISTINCTION, IT IS ARTIFICIAL!
    IT'S ARTIFICIAL!!1


    I am, however, unsure what that means, exactly.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #15
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    People, people, people... It's not do you like judgment. It's what is judgment.
    It's everything that Perception is not. Perception is sensing information: internally or externally; concrete and abstract. Judgement drives and frames Perception, and it reads, reacts to and structures the data Perception provides.

    I suppose you could say that Judgement is a shaping device and Perception is an object that is molded. Of course it varies from situation to situation what form of shaping might take place. Sometimes it may be a process of simply shaping a series of objects by ordering and structuring them.

    I'm getting an image, in my crystal balls, of a spectrum, and on one end is full on perception, while at the other is static judgment... and people--as in cognitive persons--swinging from one end to the other.
    I don't see them as connected in that way - to me they are two very different things working in particular combinations. I think of it more as when Perception takes the lead, Judgement supports, and vice versa. This alters the role Judgement plays, making it active (driving Perception) or responsive (evaluating Perception).

    But what's this capturing of the moment business that judgment seems to do? (The "moment" here is construed broadly: there are four kinds of moment--outer physical, outer abstraction, inner physical, inner abstraction.)
    What do you mean? Can you give an example?
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

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  6. #16
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    Judgement is guided perception

    Thats an oxymoron or not, depends on how you read it
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #17
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Perception is of the senses. Judgement is of the mind. They are different things entirely. The balance of these is what drives the P/J dochotomy in typology.
    Perception is of the present.
    Judgement requires presupposition, which means experience. This means it is of the past.

  8. #18
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    What my perception is telling me is:

    perception and judgment work together--don't know how.
    but it's weird to keep pretending they're cinderella and the ugly sisters--the beautiful cinderella is not adopted, not amazingly different in kind and type and nature, SHE AND THE SISTERS ARE RELATED!!--don't know how--siblings, clones, sides of a single coin?

    Judgment and Perception go together in some dynamic function that means they need each other and might even be each other. Consciousness of one more than the other gives an artificial impression of distinctness of type and kind. But at some level it's bizarre to distinguish them. At the very least it's strange to imagine that somehow--magically, mystically--two fundamental and distinct process occur as primitive in human cognition. I'd like to know what's behind this two-ness. Why two? How two? How did we get two different mechanisms?


    AND FOR GOD'S SAKE Ps, HOW CAN PERCEPTION THRIVE IF YOU KEEP THROWING DOWN THESE RULES ABOUT PERCEPTION IS THIS, JUDGMENT IS THAT?!
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #19
    morose bourgeoisie
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    LOL^^. OK. Glad you have found this point of clarity.

  10. #20
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I should possible also point out:

    I'm taking it as basic that judgment works on perception, but that there are realms where it's active and where it's passive. Extroverted judgment for instance appears in an active mode when working on extroverted perception, but for the inner realm, that judgment becomes passive in some sense.

    Like, for an INTJ, Te/Se is active outer judgment (as much as it is unpleasant and tiring), but active inner judgment occurs with Ni/Fi. The Te component is formally passive. It's actively represented in "Fi" (since Te/Fi are sides of a coin and relate), but the distinct process of "Te" slows down or stops..

    In that sense, judgment and perception are never... well, they might still be distinct, but they're never alone.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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