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  1. #81
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    I'm laughing so hard I'm crying right now

    sorry that's mean i'm not laughing that hard
    Apologize.

  2. #82
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    Apologize.
    I did
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  3. #83
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    Yeah.. DJ made sense about people having various kinds of tests. And I mean, it's true.. I just couldn't fathom treating someone poorly just to see if they'd take it. I mean, at best, sure, it's a quick way to see if the guy is a doormat.. but couldn't observation serve the same purpose? At worst.. if the guy is a doormat.. he's got self value issues you're actively preying upon for your own benefit, & leaving him worse off than he was before. Overall it just seems like a really.. disgusting way to figure someone out. But yeah, I don't wanna derail the thread too much with this, so I'll leave it at that.
    Admittedly though, people don't really want doormats do they? It's nice to sympathise, but that sympathy is usually empty. Often it can do more harm than good.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  4. #84
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Yes I've noticed this. I think I do expect a form of submission. The way I view things, if they're willing to act submissive, it proves to me that they're willing to do what it takes to make things work between us. If they aren't, they aren't someone I wish to continue trying to connect with. More or less a test. This could be an E8 thing. When someone shows me they have the courage to submit, I'll actually pick them back up and dust them off and tell them everything is cool and act submissive in return, and thus respect them even more than I used to. But I have no tolerance for inflated egos.
    Yeah, that makes sense. It does seem like a sort of e8 power thing, though I've felt that way too. It's definitely a power thing, anyway. The only issue is, what if you're expecting an apology for something that wasn't perceived by the other person as a transgression? Like, if she wasn't intending to be a bitch - if she was just flirting - and you doorslammed her for a month and are now expecting an apology - that wouldn't really make any sense from her POV. She'd already have submitted herself by flirting, and you'd have thrown up a wall in response.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    The bolded has definitely happened to me and created conflict with Fe users before. They have a much better understanding of which actions are wrong in an interpersonal sense and why. I'm not always very good at seeing interpersonal exchange - for example, understanding that I was the major "cause" of a bad situation, or where an external tipping point may have occurred.

    I think Fe users also are more likely to feel like apologizing is a necessary social "form" that must be engaged - like part of a necessary process that can't be moved through before subsequent mending occurs, while Fi users aren't necessarily as invested in hearing that, but will expect the other person to lay out their feelings as a gesture of genuine, from-the-heartness.
    Check out my previous response. Its not so much that I, Fe user, need someone to apologize because "that's what people do when they mess up," so much as it is an objective and visible expression of remorse. This tells me that the person wants to make amends instead of maintain the position of being right. This is also by no means a one sided thing. I feel like I am one of the few people on this earth who apologizes for what he does wrong, and there is nothing in my ego that says I need to be right in the context of a relationship with another person.

    Am I wrong to think its immature for two people to fight over who is right instead of working to find the true problem and fix it?

  6. #86
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Admittedly though, people don't really want doormats do they? It's nice to sympathise, but that sympathy is usually empty. Often it can do more harm than good.
    That's interesting. Why do you think sympathy is usually empty? I think it's usually well-intended, even if it's not always completely understood.

  7. #87
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Check out my previous response. Its not so much that I, Fe user, need someone to apologize because "that's what people do when they mess up," so much as it is an objective and visible expression of remorse. This tells me that the person wants to make amends instead of maintain the position of being right. This is also by no means a one sided thing. I feel like I am one of the few people on this earth who apologizes for what he does wrong, and there is nothing in my ego that says I need to be right in the context of a relationship with another person.

    Am I wrong to think its immature for two people to fight over who is right instead of working to find the true problem and fix it?
    Oh, no, I get that. You want the demonstration of remorse to continue on. It's a meaningful gesture that lays the ground for further mending, not an empty form. I understand.

    I'm just still not convinced that she actually realized that she transgressed against you, and your whole desire for an apology pivots on that fact. If she doesn't understand that (why) her actions were harmful to you, she's not going to apologize for them. Maybe she recognizes that you were angry but she probably doesn't understand why it was hurtful. Clearly she's trying to make some sort of reparation, though.

    In other words... you're seeing how her action made you feel hurt, so naturally you see her as having wronged you, and apology is the next step if she wants to move on into a positive relationship with you, which she's seeming to express. Except, if she didn't intend explicit harm from the beginning, then she might not see the situation as being worth apology, as she might not at all understand how or why you were hurt by it, nor that or why you need an apology.

    She may also be nervous about reopening that can of worms, and hesitant to engage with you following the month-long communication block.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Yeah, that makes sense. It does seem like a sort of e8 power thing, though I've felt that way too. It's definitely a power thing, anyway. The only issue is, what if you're expecting an apology for something that wasn't perceived by the other person as a transgression? Like, if she wasn't intending to be a bitch - if she was just flirting - and you doorslammed her for a month and are now expecting an apology - that wouldn't really make any sense from her POV. She'd already have submitted herself by flirting, and you'd have thrown up a wall in response.
    True. I think my standpoint from the beginning, however, was that I have plenty of friends who would never hurt me in this way. So why should I spend any effort in trying to make things right with her when I can find someone else? I'm not going to try to change someone who I percieve as a princess. It doesn't even matter if she understands why I don't talk to her anymore. In this situation, my feelings have priority over the feelings of others.

  9. #89
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    That's interesting. Why do you think sympathy is usually empty? I think it's usually well-intended, even if it's not always completely understood.
    Because people do it all the time, they throw out sympathy to an individual, but it's off-hand it's in the moment. The person who throws out that sympathy probably isn't looking to make a friend, they are just reacting in a manner they believe is the correct or more courteous, they aren't going to invest any time or deeper thought into the matter.

    It's the same way in which some people give soiled clothes to charity shops then feel good about themselves. What exactly did they give up there? They certainly couldn't give a fuck about the people they are helping, they just want their 5 minutes of feel good glow.

    Maybe some people are sincerely intentioned, but they are the minority and I find they fade into the background compared with the vast majority.

    This is probably sounding like a disgusting level of judgement and I suppose it is. It's just I get tired of seeing empty platitudes with little action. If someone truly cares THEY ACT.

    I really think empty sympathy is dangerous. It could be asked who am I to judge what is empty sympathy, well I would say it shows in the action, not the intent.

    Anyone can claim to intend something, very few prove that they do. And while it is true that it isn't always the giver of sympathies fault that the recipient can latch onto them more than they intended, they could have at least considered that outcome and the level of commitment they were willing to divulge before they involved themselves in someone else's life.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  10. #90
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    Most selflessness is ultimately another form of selfishness. For example, enneagram 2's need to help others to feel good about themselves. E3's need to help others to not feel worthless, etc. The word "selfless" is more or less an illusion painted as a good thing because most would rather view "love" as something more than chemical.

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