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  1. #71
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    But don't you think its worth mentioning that you think you're owed an apology? In essense you're saying, "I want you to recognize that you hurt my feelings so we can fix this and move on."

    Idunno about you guys but I find it very easy to tell if someone gives a heartfelt apology versus someone who says it just to tell you what you want to hear.
    I would tell them I was hurt, whether or not they want to apologize is up to them. I would not flat out ask them to apologize, as I really don't see the point.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    I would tell them I was hurt, whether or not they want to apologize is up to them. I would not flat out ask them to apologize, as I really don't see the point.
    Hmm, that's a great point. I can see how my delivery is completely wrong.

    I once told an ESFP that he pissed me off when he did x. He just shook his head as if to say "it is what it is." I haven't bothered asking an ESFP to apologize ever since (I haven't mentioned the other ESFP's who more or less reacted the same way), but I suppose its worth a shot.

  3. #73
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    I think I only expect apologies as an ultimatum. Either you apologize or I stop talking to you and move on. And so I'd like to learn if its acceptable to take her sad face and ingratiating tone as enough of an apology. When people hurt me, I delete them from my life unless they apologize. That's just how I am.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    But don't you think its worth mentioning that you think you're owed an apology? In essense you're saying, "I want you to recognize that you hurt my feelings so we can fix this and move on."

    Idunno about you guys but I find it very easy to tell if someone gives a heartfelt apology versus someone who says it just to tell you what you want to hear.
    But it doesn't sound like you want to fix it and move on. So I'm guessing you're not referring to the original scenario now, but future situations in which a person doesn't apologize? If so, then yeah, the bolded is a good thing to communicate. And if the person doesn't respond the way you'd like, forget them.

    Also, what's the purpose of this thread? ...are you going to avoid everyone who appears to use Fi now?

  5. #75
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    I think I only expect apologies as an ultimatum. Either you apologize or I stop talking to you and move on. And so I'd like to learn if its acceptable to take her sad face and ingratiating tone as enough of an apology. When people hurt me, I delete them from my life unless they apologize. That's just how I am.
    Did you tell her she hurt you?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #76
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Hmm, that's a great point. I can see how my delivery is completely wrong.

    I once told an ESFP that he pissed me off when he did x. He just shook his head as if to say "it is what it is." I haven't bothered asking an ESFP to apologize ever since (I haven't mentioned the other ESFP's who more or less reacted the same way), but I suppose its worth a shot.
    To be fair, expecting/demanding an apology is basically forcing another person to lower their ego for your sake. I understand that it's also an acknowledgement and reparation for hurt, and I too have expected/demanded apologies to continue relationships, but in a perfect world, we shouldn't need apologies from others.

    I say that just because it sounds like you have a very "tit-for-tat" view of social exchange, and that's fine, but if you misunderstand the tit, so to speak, you're going to be repaying a tat that's not really accurate, and it can snowball into something it was never intended to be, and something much worse than if you gave the other the benefit of the doubt at times.

    To return to the ESFP here, it's interesting that you feel that he owed you an apology for pissing you off. Lots of people are guaranteed to piss us off in life, but does that necessarily mean they owe us an apology? Is someone else always responsible for you feeling hurt?

  7. #77
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    As for the theoretical question about Fe/Fi, internal states, and apology -

    I think Fi tries to read internal states. Fi is acutely aware of one's own internal state and learns the signs of internal states in others. I think Fi users tend to possess the assumption that most people would rather express their feelings when they decide to, not when someone outside pressures them to, so they try to get an idea of each others' states and act accordingly, so as not to have to pressure others to share their personal feelings before they're ready. Whereas I think Fe relies more on the assumption that it's polite and preferred to ask and directly inform one another, especially since Fe feeling states are generally much more clear and readily expressed than Fi feeling states.

    Relatedly, for apology, I think Fe/Ti people are more likely to think in terms of the cause-effect of "how I caused hurt" and to apologize for seeing their responsibility in the pattern as being a broken link in the chain. I think Fi users are more likely to note others expressing pain and to feel sad that they're feeling pain, and then apologize as a result. So I imagine the Fe apology may come sooner, as soon as they realize damage was enacted, while the Fi apology may take longer, after they realize how they've caused another to feel pain. Theoretically.

    But a lot of low-key Fi users I personally know are pretty apologize-y all the time, so I don't know that I'd really cement this one as a Fe/Fi thing. I think being apologizey also goes along with the territory of lower self-esteem and being less apologizey goes along with the territory of being very self-assured. In this case the ESFP sounds very self-assured, so I wouldn't really expect much apology.
    I agree with this, and I'm in the apologize-y camp, myself (often too much so). I was trying to think of times when I think a Fi-user wouldn't apologize, I guess I could see:

    • When a apology is demanded for the sake of form alone. Fi tends to value genuine expression.
    • (kind of a subset of the above) When the Fi user has violated a "meaningless" social convention or rule.
    • When the negative consequences of the wrong action are not yet apparent. (that is, when the Fi user is unaware of the "wrongness" of the action, even if it may be obvious to others)
    • When the hurt was a result of someone else's personal issues or invalid expectations. For example, I'm not going to apologize for failing to read someone's mind or meet an expectation that there was no way I could possibly know about, even if I may feel bad that the other party felt hurt/upset.


    but really I think when hurt is apparent, Fi-users are just as apologetic as anyone else... just with a different valuation on what is worth apologizing about.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    To be fair, expecting/demanding an apology is basically forcing another person to lower their ego for your sake. I understand that it's also an acknowledgement and reparation for hurt, and I too have expected/demanded apologies to continue relationships, but in a perfect world, we shouldn't need apologies from others.

    I say that just because it sounds like you have a very "tit-for-tat" view of social exchange, and that's fine, but if you misunderstand the tit, so to speak, you're going to be repaying a tat that's not really accurate, and it can snowball into something it was never intended to be, and something much worse than if you gave the other the benefit of the doubt at times.
    Yes I've noticed this. I think I do expect a form of submission. The way I view things, if they're willing to act submissive, it proves to me that they're willing to do what it takes to make things work between us. If they aren't, they aren't someone I wish to continue trying to connect with. More or less a test. This could be an E8 thing. When someone shows me they have the courage to submit, I'll actually pick them back up and dust them off and tell them everything is cool and act submissive in return, and thus respect them even more than I used to. But I have no tolerance for inflated egos.

  9. #79
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    I'm laughing so hard I'm crying right now

    sorry that's mean i'm not laughing that hard
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  10. #80
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I agree with this, and I'm in the apologize-y camp, myself (often too much so). I was trying to think of times when I think a Fi-user wouldn't apologize, I guess I could see:

    • When a apology is demanded for the sake of form alone. Fi tends to value genuine expression.
    • (kind of a subset of the above) When the Fi user has violated a "meaningless" social convention or rule.
    • When the negative consequences of the wrong action are not yet apparent. (that is, when the Fi user is unaware of the "wrongness" of the action, even if it may be obvious to others)
    • When the hurt was a result of someone else's personal issues or invalid expectations. For example, I'm not going to apologize for failing to read someone's mind or meet an expectation that there was no way I could possibly know about, even if I may feel bad that the other party felt hurt/upset.


    but really I think when hurt is apparent, Fi-users are just as apologetic as anyone else... just with a different valuation on what is worth apologizing about.
    The bolded has definitely happened to me and created conflict with Fe users before. They have a much better understanding of which actions are wrong in an interpersonal sense and why. I'm not always very good at seeing interpersonal exchange - for example, understanding that I was the major "cause" of a bad situation, or where an external tipping point may have occurred.

    I think Fe users also are more likely to feel like apologizing is a necessary social "form" that must be engaged - like part of a necessary process that can't be moved through before subsequent mending occurs, while Fi users aren't necessarily as invested in hearing that, but will expect the other person to lay out their feelings as a gesture of genuine, from-the-heartness.

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