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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    I would never ask someone to apologize to me. The whole idea of apologizing needs to come from them or it is somehow less or not a real apology. I don't want someone doing it just because I asked.
    But don't you think its worth mentioning that you think you're owed an apology? In essense you're saying, "I want you to recognize that you hurt my feelings so we can fix this and move on."

    Idunno about you guys but I find it very easy to tell if someone gives a heartfelt apology versus someone who says it just to tell you what you want to hear.

  2. #62
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    If she was under the impression that you were her friend and then you hit on her, more or less out of nowhere, you could have just thrown her for a loop. It'd be like talking about the weather and all of a sudden someone whips out their dick.

    It can be like "Now what do I do?" And in that situation, sometimes folks do stupid things. Once they have time to process, they may make modifications. But apologizing for behaving oddly when someone metaphorical whips their dick out unexpectedly . . . well it's just so damn awkward it's sometimes best to pretend like it didn't happen and go on the best you can.
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  3. #63
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Let's see, you were friends, and she asked you to throw away a salad container, and now you DON'T TALK TO HER ANYMORE? Doesn't your reaction seem out of PROPORTION to you? Is it possible for you to imagine that 99% of the rest of the population would wonder WHY you would treat them that way too? And if she likes you even just a little bit, that it might make her TRY to figure out why you won't talk to her now? THIS SEEMS LIKE A NORMAL HUMAN REACTION to try to figure out AN IRRATIONAL HUMAN BEHAVIOUR TO ME. She's being nice to you hoping you might talk again? Or maybe she's being nice to you because she's figured out you're a little bit SCARY and it's better to just keep you on good/neutral terms lest you blow up again like the "SALAD BOWL PSYCHO?"
    He did describe at one point in the thread how the request was delivered. It could've been construed as catty/flirtatious, or perhaps it hinted at self-entitlement - be it something she's aware of or just exuding due to some kind of misunderstanding of what to expect from a guy you like. Not everyone likes the "game play interaction" you mentioned in one of your posts, or immediately understands/finds it appealing. I know I sure don't, & the notion of a guy "worshiping at my feet" doesn't sound enticing at all, even on a lighthearted level. But, that's just me.

    While I agree, throwing the bowl away and snapping at her wasn't a good idea at all (just passive-aggressive.. that gets you nowhere), I don't think we can assume to know her mindset behind that behavior, let alone defend it. Explore possibilities, sure- but we can't exactly condemn the guy for not knowing. He's asking in the post because obviously he realizes there's information he's missing.

    I think the most any of us can conclude regarding this thread is that he should have talked to her instead of immediately reacting, and talking to her now would be a very good idea, as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    But don't you think its worth mentioning that you think you're owed an apology? In essense you're saying, "I want you to recognize that you hurt my feelings so we can fix this and move on."

    Idunno about you guys but I find it very easy to tell if someone gives a heartfelt apology versus someone who says it just to tell you what you want to hear.

    I don't think you're necessarily "owed" an apology in a first-time scenario like this. You don't know for certain that she realized this was going to be an offensive action to you. It isn't that disrespectful to some people, for various reasons. I'd say, if she gives a shit about you, & did this in the future AFTER you tell her plainly that you find it disrespectful (& explain why, compare notes, etc)- then your strong emotional reaction might be a bit more warranted. Like I said in my 1st reply to the OP- I think entitled "princess" behavior would irk me, too, but I try to give the benefit of the doubt.

    Personally if someone I've been interested in has done something that upsets me, I try to put the emotional response on the backburner, & tell them how that makes me feel, so they know in the future. I don't expect them to be "sorry" for not knowing that about me. If they choose to overlook it after, then my hurt feelings are a bit more valid, I think. And vice versa. I couldn't blame a guy for getting mad at me if I repeatedly did something AFTER he explicitly stated it bothered him. However, I still wouldn't tolerate the passive aggressive expression of anger, either way. I don't think it'd particularly healthy/constructive in terms of interacting with another person.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    If she was under the impression that you were her friend and then you hit on her, more or less out of nowhere, you could have just thrown her for a loop. It'd be like talking about the weather and all of a sudden someone whips out their dick.

    It can be like "Now what do I do?" And in that situation, sometimes folks do stupid things. Once they have time to process, they may make modifications. But apologizing for behaving oddly when someone metaphorical whips their dick out unexpectedly . . . well it's just so damn awkward it's sometimes best to pretend like it didn't happen and go on the best you can.
    lmao. well said. My interpretations of body language have never been wrong as far as I can remember, but I suppose I can make mistakes.

    I feel like she's a princess because:
    -her dad makes 15k a month and buys her whatever she wants. I smashed her phone, she bought a new one the next day.
    -she stood with her hand on her hip and asked me to throw her trash away, expectant expression that hinted to self entitlement
    -she used to complain to me about how her ex was a nerd

    I saw a lack of respect from her and decided she wasn't the type of person I wanted to hang out with.

  5. #65
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    So, after learning some socionics, I've learned that Fi often ASSUMES the internal state of other people, while Fe needs to hear it in an objective fashion.

    Simultaneously, I notice that Fe users tend to appologize much more readily than Fi users.

    I recently was hitting on an ESFP. I told her she was attractive at one point. She then flipped and went princess on me. She was eating a salad out of a styrofoam bowl, and when she was done, held the bowl up to my face and said, "can you throw this away for me?"

    I looked at her feeling pain from what she said, and responded, "because I'm such a nice fucking guy." I took her tray and threw it out for her and didn't speak to her for a month.

    She started to realize that I had no intention of speaking to her ever again. I door slammed her. She started getting upset and anytime I was near she'd look at me a lot and make faces of concern. I don't know what emotion it was specifically. Some sort of remorse, guilt, something.

    She's never appologized. I haven't bothered asking her to either. Last time I asked an esfp to appologize to me was a disaster.

    So now she's super nice to me. So, in general Fi user fashion, I'm assuming this is her way of apologizing. I've had an INTJ appologize to me once when he started cleaning my room and asking me how my day was etc. I had an ENTJ appologize to me by looking at the floor and stating things awkwardly. So I assume its something similar with ESFP.

    So now I'm wondering, is she actually sorry? Do Fi users need to appologize? Or should I just assume it?

    From my perspective, the lack of an apology seems like a blatant form of selfishness, as if being right is more important than whatever else is on her mind. What do you think? What is going on in her mind? Why do Fi users do this? Is there something about their ego that prevents them from apologizing?
    I didn't read every response, and this type of exchange is hard to read without seeing the body language and the dynamics that led up to it. It is true that throwing away a salad bowl in an insignificant surface gesture, but it is too difficult to know what all was going on from an outsider view.

    It is possible that it was condescending, and it is possible that it was an excuse to talk to you. It might be something that she sees as a sign of friendship or intimacy to be able to ask someone to do that, or she could just be socially oblivious. Based on the fleeting into here, I would suggest that you don't worry too much about a single incident. If she is actually condescending, then there will be a pattern of such behavior. If the overall pattern is that she seems nice, then I would just dismiss the garbage incident.

    It could be that it represents more to you than it would customarily. Does it relate to anything else you have experienced in your life? Have you seen people ask people to do things that seem condescending as a pattern of being unkind? It is worth taking a look inside and trying to figure out why it bothered you so much.

    I'm guessing that she has no memory of the incident, and I would recommend not get too fixated on getting an apology. If something similar happens again, it would be good to address it at the time. Also, if you are uncomfortable with a request, then it is okay to say no, or even ask why. Or you could make a joke and ask her to do the same for you, like "Sure I'll throw it away, and here's mine for you to throw away" and laugh. If you really want an apology for that incident, you could say you are sorry for not talking to her in a while, but it bothered you when she asked you to throw away her garbage because it didn't make sense why she would do that - or something along those lines.

    It feels like this represents something very significant to you and that could be because of your past experiences and subjective interpretation of the incident, or it could be because of many other subtleties in your interaction with her that built up this tension and feelings of condescension. Spend some time figuring out how much of this comes from inside and how much from outside, and if you can articulate exactly why it was upsetting to you.
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  6. #66
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Here we go again with the NFP's telling me I'm a sociopathic narcissist again. lmao. I think you need to leave the house.

    I am entitled to reject whomever I choose from my life. I'm not in a begging position to make friends, as I have quite a lot. So if she treats me like her servant, I cut her from my life and meet someone who won't. If that's narcissism then... sure I guess I'm a narcissist. haha.

    I shouldn't have to include people in my life who upset me just to prove that I'm not a narcissist, lmao.
    So you've rejected her, good for you! Why are you so concerned about still getting an apology from her then? Why do you even care, why is this even on your radar atm?

    And why are you conflating this to some "Fi vs Fe" thing? That this thread has even gained some serious discussion on your OP is amazing to me! Fi users don't apologize with words, just actions?

    Maybe she did want to offend you, because you're the [mod edit] who broke her phone!
    Last edited by Vasilisa; 06-26-2013 at 09:15 AM. Reason: namecalling
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  7. #67
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    Hm.

    Honestly the whole situation is kind of strange to me... it seems like quite a bit of drama over essentially very little exchange. You hit on her... she kind of rudely asked you to throw something away (could have even be goofy/haughty flirting)... you said something snappy and then doorslammed her for a month... then she was super nice afterwards. It kind of sounds like back-and-forth overreaction on both of your parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Am I wrong to attribute this to Fi/Fe difference? or am I just dealing with people who don't care about what I think?
    I don't think it's really either of those... If anything, it makes me think of how from the female perspective, sometimes it can get kind of old being hit on by guys - being hit on is somewhat of an intrusion, after all, even if a flattering one - and one reaction to that is to become snooty when you're hit on, both to discourage "suitors" and also to test how interested they actually are. I don't know at all if she was doing that, but I've reacted like that before, and not out of any malice.

    And following that, I think it's surprising that you threw it away from her and got mad afterwards. Not that it's necessarily a "wrong"/bad reaction, but it's not really logically consistent, either. You seemed to have felt like it was an inappropriate request, but you honored it anyway.

    As for the theoretical question about Fe/Fi, internal states, and apology -

    I think Fi tries to read internal states. Fi is acutely aware of one's own internal state and learns the signs of internal states in others. I think Fi users tend to possess the assumption that most people would rather express their feelings when they decide to, not when someone outside pressures them to, so they try to get an idea of each others' states and act accordingly, so as not to have to pressure others to share their personal feelings before they're ready. Whereas I think Fe relies more on the assumption that it's polite and preferred to ask and directly inform one another, especially since Fe feeling states are generally much more clear and readily expressed than Fi feeling states.

    Relatedly, for apology, I think Fe/Ti people are more likely to think in terms of the cause-effect of "how I caused hurt" and to apologize for seeing their responsibility in the pattern as being a broken link in the chain. I think Fi users are more likely to note others expressing pain and to feel sad that they're feeling pain, and then apologize as a result. So I imagine the Fe apology may come sooner, as soon as they realize damage was enacted, while the Fi apology may take longer, after they realize how they've caused another to feel pain. Theoretically.

    But a lot of low-key Fi users I personally know are pretty apologize-y all the time, so I don't know that I'd really cement this one as a Fe/Fi thing. I think being apologizey also goes along with the territory of lower self-esteem and being less apologizey goes along with the territory of being very self-assured. In this case the ESFP sounds very self-assured, so I wouldn't really expect much apology.

    That all said - If you didn't talk to her for a month, I understand why she wouldn't apologize. There wouldn't really be a point during non-communication, and then later it would be uncomfortable and confusing to try to know whether you would want it brought up or if you would prefer to not have to think about it again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis
    I will often preface such an explanation by saying it is not meant to justify or excuse, just to help the other person understand the situation, and show them that I now know how to avoid doing the same thing in future
    This is very useful, Coriolis, thank you. I've had two bosses - both ExTJs - tell me that I excuse/justify myself or my actions, but in my mind, it's clear that damage has been done and I'm trying to explain what led to the situation - why I made the decisions that I did. I'm not trying to get out of being in trouble, just trying to make it clear what I am responsible for and what I'm not. I'm going to use this sort of preface in the future to avoid creating that impression.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    So you've rejected her, good for you! Why are you so concerned about still getting an apology from her then? Why do you even care, why is this even on your radar atm?

    And why are you conflating this to some "Fi vs Fe" thing? That this thread has even gained some serious discussion on your OP is amazing to me! Fi users don't apologize with words, just actions?

    Maybe she did want to offend you, because you're the dumb-ass who broke her phone!
    Are you trolling me right now? I'm convinced you've spent zero time reading the op. You have no idea what my question is.

  9. #69
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Are you trolling me right now? I'm convinced you've spent zero time reading the op. You have no idea what my question is.
    I am saying the OP is so lean on information that there is simply no way to read anything of substance or meaning into that exchange. And then you expanding it into big questions reflective of Fe / Fi differences seems like too far an extrapolation to even be entertained.

    Let me say it another way - if she didn't know what she did to offend you, because you did not take the time to say so out loud, how can you expect to understand her motivations or receive any kind of apology? Why are you construing her asking you to throw out a salad bowl as an act of disrespect towards you? Doesn't that seem like an extreme interpretation on your part? And if it IS that big in your mind, and important, is it not important enough to discuss like rational people, rather than "door-slamming" her?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  10. #70
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    I'm smelling a narcissist around here, and it's not your ESFP friend.
    Great. This would be the third time this week an NFP has told me I'm a sociopath narcissist. lmao. Last time it happened was because I said I charge money for life coaching services. Now its because I want someone to give me an apology.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    So you've rejected her, good for you!
    Condescending

    And why are you conflating this to some "Fi vs Fe" thing? That this thread has even gained some serious discussion on your OP is amazing to me! Fi users don't apologize with words, just actions?
    You gonna correct my understand of Fi or are you going to just laugh at me for asking a question?

    Maybe she did want to offend you, because you're the dumb-ass who broke her phone!
    Now we're calling me a dumbass.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I am saying the OP is so lean on information that there is simply no way to read anything of substance or meaning into that exchange.
    Well I'm glad you clarified that you don't actually have any idea what the situation was. You're more interested in condescending and harassing me.

    I'm glad we cleared that up.

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