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  1. #51
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    So, after learning some socionics, I've learned that Fi often ASSUMES the internal state of other people, while Fe needs to hear it in an objective fashion.

    Simultaneously, I notice that Fe users tend to appologize much more readily than Fi users.
    I feel guilty for chuckling a little when reading this. There have been some extremely long, excruciating threads where the opposite has been declared as the case. MBTI can be used to justify most any conclusion. I think both types can certainly be apologetic or withholding apology. The person I have known that have the most trouble apologizing was an extremely conscientious ISTJ who would have tertiary Fi. She liked to be the caregiver and "in the know", and she couldn't say the words "I'm sorry", but would find other ways to convey the same. I certainly would never fault her for this because she was made of gold inside.

    Most emotional conflicts I've had with Fi-users have involved them assuming my internal state, and unfortunately that upsets me quite a bit because it feels like complete dismissal. I grew up surrounded by Fi-doms, and find that the connection is beautiful, wonderful, deep, ideal, except for emotional conflict. That is a nightmare to me because of feeling judged and being told what I'm feeling, thinking, motivated by, etc. Unfortunately, when I address a behavior that I find to be a problem, the Fi-user translates it into something I'm assuming about their character, so it is difficult/impossible to communicate during conflict. I tend to stop communicating and focus on sending gifts, giving compliments, sending funny pictures of cute animals, and just trying to simplify the interaction into an almost childlike positivity. Edit: there may be a better way to approach miscommunication, but I'm not sure what it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I prefer explanations to apologies. Explanations help establish what actually happened when someone got hurt, which is usually an accident of sorts, a clash of contingencies. Apologies, to me, generally suggest some kind of mistake on the part of the one apologizing, as if something that should and could have been done was not done due to some character flaw or out of malice. As such, it only serves to assign blame to one of the parties involved when it is really coincidence or innocent ignorance that is responsible. If it was no coincidence, on the other hand, then I doubt the feeling of remorse I associate with apologies would be present, in which case an apology would be no more than a lie.
    Others have pointed this out, and I completely agree. An apology without any explanation is something I will forgive, but it also leaves me feeling confused. It's helpful to know if any of the factors that went into the conflict are something that I have control over correcting. This includes clearing up misperceptions the other person may have about me or my intentions.

    Because I've dealt with intangible, generalized guilt all my life, I tend to not want others to feel guilt. It only seems useful if it prevents a harmful behavior. If someone can correct the harmful behavior without guilt, that would seem preferable to me. I am philosophically against punishment and it seems like desiring a feeling a guilt in others is connected to desiring some level of punishment for their behavior. Correcting problematic, harmful behaviors and clearing up misperceptions to improve communication and relationships is what I care about. My mindset is pragmatic and results oriented in this regard.
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  2. #52
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    I recently was hitting on an ESFP. I told her she was attractive at one point. She then flipped and went princess on me. She was eating a salad out of a styrofoam bowl, and when she was done, held the bowl up to my face and said, "can you throw this away for me?"
    Man, you totally missed this, and @Rasofy nailed it. You have a platonic friendship that you (YOU) appear to be trying to take to the next level by telling her she's attractive, AND THEN, at the first sign she gives you that she'll let you worship at her feet, you freak-out and have a self-righteous hissy-fit?



    Let me give you a tip, and tell you what grown-ups do when they're not happy with another person's behaviour: they TELL them. If you don't tell her WHY you were upset about that, why should you expect any kind of apology, especially in a male / female game-play interaction that you initiated then dropped the ball on because your reactive ego can't summon up enough perspective to see what other things could have been possibly going on in that moment?

    This is NOTHING about Fi vs Fe. Be an adult and tell her you were offended by the 'salad incident' but you NOW realize your reaction was out of proportion to the event - man, you should be the one apologizing to her for being such a princess for the last month. You'd trade in a friendship (or more) because of a salad bowl? I can't even fathom how you think she 'owes' you anything here. But if you need to clear the air to get equity on it, just talk it out! Be open! You'd better be darn cute or charming to be worth the trouble .....
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  3. #53
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    She has nothing to apologise for. She asked you to do something for her. You did it. Then you threw a tantrum. She's probably waiting for you to apologise/grow up.
    This about sums up the situation. All the rest is presumptive smoke and mirrors. Not sure she is really waiting for (i.e. expecting) anything from DJ now; she may simply have moved on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    People who content themselves with apologies are too easily appeased. Whether or not someone is sorry for something they've done carries little weight with me. The best guide to future behaviour is past behaviour.
    Yes, an apology is just words. I don't necessarily hold people's past behavior against them, but they have to show the intent and the means to change. I will then watch to see whether they make good on this. The important part of an apology for me, then, is where the person shows an understanding of how and why the event occurred, and how they plan to avoid it in future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    This is something that came up indirectly in one of those epic Fe/Fi battle threads (that always provide the best insights). I think there is an element of truth to it: Fi users aren't terribly good at apologising*. This doesn't mean we're not sorry or that we wouldn't apologise if we knew it was seen as hurtful or selfish not to. We're just not as good at the whole, "social courtesies for the sake of social courtesy" thing. We don't always know when we're meant to do and say certain things. We don't always get (or agree) that there are universal rules about human interaction because it seems so contextual to Fi. Fe way can seem like going through the motions; like reading empty words from a script that someone else has written and that we don't entirely understand the need for (or perhaps even what lines we're meant to say). I say my lines and you say yours and somehow that makes things better? It can feel so forced and hollow; we would rather find some other way to remedy things that feels more genuine and real - to speak from the heart. This is not just for ourselves but for others too, because the scripted way can seem like we're being disingenuous to them.
    This is my view entirely, especially the highlighted. I learned plenty of these scripts as a child, and still feel like a complete fake when I use them. It is very hard for me to say something I don't mean, or that I don't even understand (how can I mean it if I don't understand it?) On the other hand, I don't want to insult people or hurt their feelings for no reason, so I will sometimes just say my lines and be done with it. You are right, though, that the best course of action is to find a more genuine response. With only tert-Fi, though, that can be difficult, though the type of explanation Nicodemus describes is usually straightforward and comfortable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Yeah, but this is part of the problem, though. If one explains too much it can sound like justification. So I've learned, anyway.
    Then it is has not been explained correctly. An explanation is exactly that: here is what happened, just the facts. A justification adds a value judgment: it is OK that it happened; I am not wrong. I will often preface such an explanation by saying it is not meant to justify or excuse, just to help the other person understand the situation, and show them that I now know how to avoid doing the same thing in future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Justifying the intention is fine, but you can't really justify causing the reaction (even if it was accidental). Sometimes the apology is for the result, not the motive.
    Yes, I am always willing to apologise for the negative effects of my actions on others, since that is never my intent. Even when I do something that I know will hurt or inconvenience someone else, I regret that aspect of it, and wish it could be otherwise. I make such choices only when there isn't another way to get the result, much as the dentist sometimes causes pain in repairing problem teeth. It needs to be done, but he apologises for any attendant discomfort. I also will apologise when I hurt someone out of ignorance, not realizing how my actions would impact them. In such cases, it helps if they can explain their side of the situation. Then my ignorance is corrected, and I am much less likely to hurt or offend them this way again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    They feel bad because they made the other person feel bad- due to some unintentional slight or such. "I shot the arrow o'er the house." Thus to apologise is to convey that the consequences were unintentional (rather than malicious). This isn't necessarily a selfish act, unless you believe the preservation of good relations is always selfishly motivated (and I'm not suggested an argument couldn't be made for that).
    The preservation of good relations often does arise from self-interest, which is not necessarily bad. Apologies are thus both for the "guilty" party and the wronged party, just as forgiveness is for both as well. Both are ways of repairing the connections between people, after they have been disrupted in some manner.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I prefer explanations to apologies. Explanations help establish what actually happened when someone got hurt, which is usually an accident of sorts, a clash of contingencies. Apologies, to me, generally suggest some kind of mistake on the part of the one apologizing, as if something that should and could have been done was not done due to some character flaw or out of malice. As such, it only serves to assign blame to one of the parties involved when it is really coincidence or innocent ignorance that is responsible. If it was no coincidence, on the other hand, then I doubt the feeling of remorse I associate with apologies would be present, in which case an apology would be no more than a lie.
    Good call

  5. #55
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    @PeaceBaby... I don't think you understand.

    my intention of not speaking to her for a month, was to never speak to her again. She's doing everything she possibly can to regain my attention. She's very aware otherwise she wouldn't be so distressed about regaining my attention.

    I'm wondering if this is her way of apologizing, or she's just a selfish idiot who delights in the challenge of having everyone feed her attention at all times.

    I'm gonna put this in the op.

    edit: Oh wait it is, and you didn't read it.

  6. #56
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    haha. ok so what would be a situation in which an Fi user apologizes? What reason would an Fi dom not apologize?
    Fi users when we feel like we have done something wrong (either morally or as the result of an unwise decision). for instance, if I say my opinion and it offends you, I really don't care; however, if I say something that was seriously disrespectful or mean, accidentally break something or am responsible for any sort of problem, I will apologize for that, because someone else is suffering for my poor decision making.
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  7. #57
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Let me give you a tip, and tell you what grown-ups do when they're not happy with another person's behaviour: they TELL them. If you don't tell her WHY you were upset about that, why should you expect any kind of apology, especially in a male / female game-play interaction that you initiated then dropped the ball on because your reactive ego can't summon up enough perspective to see what other things could have been possibly going on in that moment?

    This is NOTHING about Fi vs Fe. Be an adult and tell her you were offended by the 'salad incident' but you NOW realize your reaction was out of proportion to the event - man, you should be the one apologizing to her for being such a princess for the last month. You'd trade in a friendship (or more) because of a salad bowl? I can't even fathom how you think she 'owes' you anything here. But if you need to clear the air to get equity on it, just talk it out! Be open! You'd better be darn cute or charming to be worth the trouble .....
    amen.. i don't understand why you're so upset about this at all. also i'd advise you to stay away from pua bullshit.

  8. #58
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    @PeaceBaby... I don't think you understand.
    Sure I do!

    my intention of not speaking to her for a month, was to never speak to her again. She's doing everything she possibly can to regain my attention. She's very aware otherwise she wouldn't be so distressed about regaining my attention.
    Let's see, you were friends, and she asked you to throw away a salad container, and now you DON'T TALK TO HER ANYMORE? Doesn't your reaction seem out of PROPORTION to you? Is it possible for you to imagine that 99% of the rest of the population would wonder WHY you would treat them that way too? And if she likes you even just a little bit, that it might make her TRY to figure out why you won't talk to her now? THIS SEEMS LIKE A NORMAL HUMAN REACTION to try to figure out AN IRRATIONAL HUMAN BEHAVIOUR TO ME. She's being nice to you hoping you might talk again? Or maybe she's being nice to you because she's figured out you're a little bit SCARY and it's better to just keep you on good/neutral terms lest you blow up again like the "SALAD BOWL PSYCHO?"

    I'm wondering if this is her way of apologizing, or she's just a selfish idiot who delights in the challenge of having everyone feed her attention at all times.
    I'm smelling a narcissist around here, and it's not your ESFP friend.

    I'm gonna put this in the op.

    edit: Oh wait it is, and you didn't read it.
    Nah, I read it, and trust me, I got the message in here. I love your energy, but imo, your reads on people need adjustment.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Sure I do!

    Let's see, you were friends, and she asked you to throw away a salad container, and now you DON'T TALK TO HER ANYMORE? Doesn't your reaction seem out of PROPORTION to you? Is it possible for you to imagine that 99% of the rest of the population would wonder WHY you would treat them that way too? And if she likes you even just a little bit, that it might make her TRY to figure out why you won't talk to her now? THIS SEEMS LIKE A NORMAL HUMAN REACTION TO try to figure out AN IRRATIONAL HUMAN BEHAVIOUR TO ME. She's being nice to you hoping you might talk again? Or maybe she's being nice to you because she's figured out you're a little bit SCARY and it's better to just keep you on good/neutral terms lest you blow up again like the "SALAD BOWL PSYCHO?"
    Here we go again with the NFP's telling me I'm a sociopathic narcissist again. lmao. I think you need to leave the house.

    I am entitled to reject whomever I choose from my life. I'm not in a begging position to make friends, as I have quite a lot. So if she treats me like her servant, I cut her from my life and meet someone who won't. If that's narcissism then... sure I guess I'm a narcissist. haha.

    I shouldn't have to include people in my life who upset me just to prove that I'm not a narcissist, lmao.

  10. #60
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    I would never ask someone to apologize to me. The whole idea of apologizing needs to come from them or it is somehow less or not a real apology. I don't want someone doing it just because I asked.

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