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  1. #41
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    I prefer explanations to apologies. Explanations help establish what actually happened when someone got hurt, which is usually an accident of sorts, a clash of contingencies. Apologies, to me, generally suggest some kind of mistake on the part of the one apologizing, as if something that should and could have been done was not done due to some character flaw or out of malice. As such, it only serves to assign blame to one of the parties involved when it is really coincidence or innocent ignorance that is responsible. If it was no coincidence, on the other hand, then I doubt the feeling of remorse I associate with apologies would be present, in which case an apology would be no more than a lie.

  2. #42
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I prefer explanations to apologies.
    +1

    People who content themselves with apologies are too easily appeased. Whether or not someone is sorry for something they've done carries little weight with me. The best guide to future behaviour is past behaviour.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  3. #43
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    So, after learning some socionics, I've learned that Fi often ASSUMES the internal state of other people, while Fe needs to hear it in an objective fashion.

    Simultaneously, I notice that Fe users tend to appologize much more readily than Fi users.

    I recently was hitting on an ESFP. I told her she was attractive at one point. She then flipped and went princess on me. She was eating a salad out of a styrofoam bowl, and when she was done, held the bowl up to my face and said, "can you throw this away for me?"

    I looked at her feeling pain from what she said, and responded, "because I'm such a nice fucking guy." I took her tray and threw it out for her and didn't speak to her for a month.

    She started to realize that I had no intention of speaking to her ever again. I door slammed her. She started getting upset and anytime I was near she'd look at me a lot and make faces of concern. I don't know what emotion it was specifically. Some sort of remorse, guilt, something.

    She's never appologized. I haven't bothered asking her to either. Last time I asked an esfp to appologize to me was a disaster.

    So now she's super nice to me. So, in general Fi user fashion, I'm assuming this is her way of apologizing. I've had an INTJ appologize to me once when he started cleaning my room and asking me how my day was etc. I had an ENTJ appologize to me by looking at the floor and stating things awkwardly. So I assume its something similar with ESFP.

    So now I'm wondering, is she actually sorry? Do Fi users need to appologize? Or should I just assume it?

    From my perspective, the lack of an apology seems like a blatant form of selfishness, as if being right is more important than whatever else is on her mind. What do you think? What is going on in her mind? Why do Fi users do this? Is there something about their ego that prevents them from apologizing?
    This is something that came up indirectly in one of those epic Fe/Fi battle threads (that always provide the best insights). I think there is an element of truth to it: Fi users aren't terribly good at apologising*. This doesn't mean we're not sorry or that we wouldn't apologise if we knew it was seen as hurtful or selfish not to. We're just not as good at the whole, "social courtesies for the sake of social courtesy" thing. We don't always know when we're meant to do and say certain things. We don't always get (or agree) that there are universal rules about human interaction because it seems so contextual to Fi. The Fe way can seem like going through the motions; like reading empty words from a script that someone else has written and that we don't entirely understand the need for (or perhaps even what lines we're meant to say). I say my lines and you say yours and somehow that makes things better? It can feel so forced and hollow; we would rather find some other way to remedy things that feels more genuine and real - to speak from the heart. This is not just for ourselves but for others too, because the scripted way can seem like we're being disingenuous to them. OTOH we sometimes don't find a way to compensate and there's just a gaping void where a social courtesy would ordinary be (which is more the case with your situation).

    Don't get me wrong, I agree that apologising is important. Those social courtesies are important to communicate in ways that are commonly understood. A good Fi user should work on developing awareness of them and learning how to use them. It just doesn't come as naturally to us; we have to consciously work at it. Validation and mirroring for example, is something I've had to work on, myself - I can start de-constructing an emotive statement by someone, without voicing that I hear and appreciate what they're feeling (or I'll think I've validated them, but I haven't done it in the right way). I literally will be in a situation thinking, "Oh, they said X. Right. This is where I'm meant to say Y in response... I think. Ugh, just try and make it sound natural and not so weird and awkward". Also the thing is, we might know (in theory) that apologising is important but we always don't know when or how we should do it. We may miss the signals others are giving us that they feel we have wronged them, or fail to understand that sometimes you just have to speak from the script to show people respect.

    In terms of her motives: it's possible that she was reacting to something more deep seated that you may have set off. Fi can be accumulative like that and will react over seemingly nothing but really it may be the straw the broke the camels back. OTOH it could be that she has a bad temper and just flipped out.

    In terms of her mindset: from what I know of you, you are quite outspoken and may come across as a bit of a tough guy. With this in mind, your ESFP may assume that: a) you're not the kind to get upset over an argument, b) you would speak up if you were pissed off at her (and that not doing so would communicate that you're over it), and c) you're not the sort that would necessarily prefer a formal apology. Now I'm not saying these are fair assumptions, or that an apology isn't warranted, I'm just imagining her thought process (like a good Fi user ). It's possible that she sees it as an occasion where you were both, equally nasty and she's just choosing to avoid speaking about it and trying to get on with things. Her being nice probably isn't an apology; it's just her being over it. I don't know about your ESFP, but I'm not the sort to bear grudges. I can flip out and yell at someone who pisses me off and then maybe an hour later, I'm completely over it.

    *If I remember correctly, the Fi users had trouble admitting fault, and Fe users had trouble admitting fallibility.
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    - Emily Bronte

  4. #44
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I prefer explanations to apologies. Explanations help establish what actually happened when someone got hurt, which is usually an accident of sorts, a clash of contingencies. Apologies, to me, generally suggest some kind of mistake on the part of the one apologizing, as if something that should and could have been done was not done due to some character flaw or out of malice. As such, it only serves to assign blame to one of the parties involved when it is really coincidence or innocent ignorance that is responsible. If it was no coincidence, on the other hand, then I doubt the feeling of remorse I associate with apologies would be present, in which case an apology would be no more than a lie.
    Yeah, but this is part of the problem, though. If one explains too much it can sound like justification. So I've learned, anyway.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #45
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    +1

    People who content themselves with apologies are too easily appeased. Whether or not someone is sorry for something they've done carries little weight with me. The best guide to future behaviour is past behaviour.
    I think when someone apologizes not because they think they should but because they genuinely feel bad, then apologies function like confessions in that they externalize the feeling of guilt and so slightly lift the burden it puts on its owner, which is psychologically beneficial. So, if I ran someone over with my car, I imagine I would apologize - not because I would think myself solely responsible, but because I would feel bad and connect apologizing, whether by cultural learning or by inherent association, with the social and emotional situation I find myself in. Interestingly, then, I think I would do it more for myself than for anyone else affected.

    All of which suggests that apologies, when not dishonest, are mostly selfish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Yeah, but this is part of the problem, though. If one explains too much it can sound like justification. So I've learned, anyway.
    Because it is justification.

  6. #46
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I think when someone apologizes not because they think they should but because they genuinely feel bad, then apologies function like confessions in that they externalize the feeling of guilt and so slightly lift the burden it puts on its owner, which is psychologically beneficial. So, if I ran someone over with my car, I imagine I would apologize - not because I would think myself solely responsible, but because I would feel bad and connect apologizing, whether by cultural learning or by inherent association, with the social and emotional situation I find myself in. Interestingly, then, I think I would do it more for myself than for anyone else affected.

    All of which suggests that apologies, when not dishonest, are mostly selfish.
    Yeah, the phrase "I'm sorry," by itself doesn't really have much value outside the person saying it, I think. It can be just empty words, sometimes, too. Social band-aid BS. However, if it's supplemented by expressing a sincere grasp as to why they feel that way- & showing an understanding as to how they hurt you/don't wish to do so again- I think that kind of acknowledgement can be comforting for the recipient.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
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  7. #47
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I think when someone apologizes not because they think they should but because they genuinely feel bad, then apologies function like confessions in that they externalize the feeling of guilt and so slightly lift the burden it puts on its owner, which is psychologically beneficial.
    ...
    All of which suggests that apologies, when not dishonest, are mostly selfish.
    They feel bad because they made the other person feel bad- due to some unintentional slight or such. "I shot the arrow o'er the house." Thus to apologise is to convey that the consequences were unintentional (rather than malicious). This isn't necessarily a selfish act, unless you believe the preservation of good relations is always selfishly motivated (and I'm not suggested an argument couldn't be made for that).

    Apologising solely to restore good relations (when no remorse is genuinely felt) is morally reprehensible, IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #48
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I think when someone apologizes not because they think they should but because they genuinely feel bad, then apologies function like confessions in that they externalize the feeling of guilt and so slightly lift the burden it puts on its owner, which is psychologically beneficial. So, if I ran someone over with my car, I imagine I would apologize - not because I would think myself solely responsible, but because I would feel bad and connect apologizing, whether by cultural learning or by inherent association, with the social and emotional situation I find myself in. Interestingly, then, I think I would do it more for myself than for anyone else affected.

    All of which suggests that apologies, when not dishonest, are mostly selfish.
    I get where you're coming from and part of me agrees, but sometimes you just have to say things, even if they don't come naturally. It can be that you've said something that inadvertently upsets someone in a way that makes no sense to you, and you just have to take their word for it that you've hurt them. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and say sorry even if you feel like it's a misunderstanding. Not that I can say I find that easy or that I'm good at that.

    Because it is justification.
    Justifying the intention is fine, but you can't really justify causing the reaction (even if it was accidental). Sometimes the apology is for the result, not the motive.

    EDIT: obviously I'm too slow at typing. Salome basically said all this.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #49
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    You didn't act like a platonic friend for five months and then suddenly hit on her, surely?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #50
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Which one are you missing?

    Which one are you employing in this instance?


    I'm puzzled why you find her request "painful", but do it anyway. Both things are...puzzling.
    Now you're angry because you feel like you've made yourself into her little bitch, but hey, you kind of did. And sulking about it is pretty dumb.

    Ima go with "something".

    She has nothing to apologise for. She asked you to do something for her. You did it. Then you threw a tantrum. She's probably waiting for you to apologise/grow up.

    Yes.Seems like a safe conclusion.


    anyways I apologize when it's warranted you get you're prissy ass feelings hurt cuz you were ask to throw something away for her, when in the big scheme of things isn't really a big deal. dude in conclusion get over it, really not talk to her for a month. that's like i don't even..i can't think...of an equally stupid reason to get that mad.

    and if someone doesn't talk to me for a month i usually assume that they're busy or have other shit going on. if you want an apology which at this point is completely and utterly retarded you should have a dialogue with her.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

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