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  1. #1
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Default So Much for Lenore Thomson's *ahem* "Tertiaries"

    "A man whose whole attitude is orientated by the principle of sensation belongs to the sensation type.

    "Normal sensations are proportionate, i.e. their value approximately corresponds with the intensity of the physical stimulus. Pathological sensations are disproportionate, i.e. either abnormally weak or abnormally strong: in the former case they are inhibited, in the latter exaggerated. The inhibition is the result of the predominance of another function; the exaggeration proceeds from an abnormal amalgamation with another function, e.g. a blending with a still undifferentiated feeling or thinking function. In such a case, the exaggeration of sensation ceases as soon as the function with which sensation is fused is differentiated in its own right." (Psychological Types, 587-8.)

    So functions can be blended. Where do Lenore Thomson's tertiaries fit in this theory? Nowhere, because they are not needed.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #2
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    To Jung, properly speaking, the only fully "differentiated" function is the dominant. (He had only eight types, remember). Then, there's the debate as to whether the next two functions are aux. or tert. or two auxiliaries.
    Really, the one called the tertiary is but a sort of "reflection" of the auxiliary (just like the inferior is a reflection of the dominant). And Lenore would say that the undifferentiated functions come into conscious when linked with the ego structure set up by the dominant, through the complexes. (In the case of the tertiary, the Puer, which is also what sets its attitude as the same as the dominant).
    That really clarifies the role the function plays in the ego, but I don't otherwise see why you're tagging specifically her with the "tertiary". That concept comes from Myers, as Jung's theory wasn't apparently developed or refined that far (hence, the "two auxiliaries"), and is used by nearly everyone else in MBTI theory.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    To Jung, properly speaking, the only fully "differentiated" function is the dominant. (He had only eight types, remember). Then, there's the debate as to whether the next two functions are aux. or tert. or two auxiliaries.
    Really, the one called the tertiary is but a sort of "reflection" of the auxiliary (just like the inferior is a reflection of the dominant). And Lenore would say that the undifferentiated functions come into conscious when linked with the ego structure set up by the dominant, through the complexes. (In the case of the tertiary, the Puer, which is also what sets its attitude as the same as the dominant).
    That really clarifies the role the function plays in the ego, but I don't otherwise see why you're tagging specifically her with the "tertiary". That concept comes from Myers, as Jung's theory wasn't apparently developed or refined that far (hence, the "two auxiliaries"), and is used by nearly everyone else in MBTI theory.
    Because of this post by "Marmotini":

    08-10-2011, 11:37 PM
    Well they're called dom-tert loops. It's not like mal invented this, this is fucking Lenore Thomson, repackaged.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #4
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Because of this post by "Marmotini":

    08-10-2011, 11:37 PM
    Well they're called dom-tert loops. It's not like mal invented this, this is fucking Lenore Thomson, repackaged.
    Yay! Marmotini has been accredited the status of MBTI guru! Two years ago! How did we miss it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    there's the debate as to whether the next two functions are aux. or tert. or two auxiliaries. Really, the one called the tertiary is but a sort of "reflection" of the auxiliary (just like the inferior is a reflection of the dominant).
    That part was interesting, thanks. With the tert being a reflection, it's a valid point to consider it two aux's in a sense... Is it just the extremity between dom and inf the reason we don't consider those two to be equitable? I assume so.
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  5. #5
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    The "loops" concept is not from Lenore, though she does have what's called "the Tertiary Temptation" or "Tertiary Defense". But that's not really a "loop" a person gets stuck in. It's just saying that we might turn to the tertiary because it maintains the ego's dominant attitude (and either the dominant can't solve a problem, or we don't want to be pulled into the opposite direction by the auxiliary sometimes).
    I don't even think people originally got it from her; it seems to have come from people trying to explain others' type, and it seemed to possibly explain functions that didn't fit together. Like the ongoing discussion on Jung himself. He seems like he "uses" both Ti and Ni, so he can be an ISTP in a TiNi "loop"; yet he seems so "N", so some have even suggested INFJ in an NiTi "loop". Then, Lenore's teaching on the tertiary seemed to go along with that, so some may attribute it to her. But it's really an exaggeration of her and others' teaching.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The "loops" concept is not from Lenore, though she does have what's called "the Tertiary Temptation" or "Tertiary Defense". But that's not really a "loop" a person gets stuck in. It's just saying that we might turn to the tertiary because it maintains the ego's dominant attitude (and either the dominant can't solve a problem, or we don't want to be pulled into the opposite direction by the auxiliary sometimes).
    I don't even think people originally got it from her; it seems to have come from people trying to explain others' type, and it seemed to possibly explain functions that didn't fit together. Like the ongoing discussion on Jung himself. He seems like he "uses" both Ti and Ni, so he can be an ISTP in a TiNi "loop"; yet he seems so "N", so some have even suggested INFJ in an NiTi "loop". Then, Lenore's teaching on the tertiary seemed to go along with that, so some may attribute it to her. But it's really an exaggeration of her and others' teaching.
    So what's your understanding of the tertiary/second auxiliary's role?

  7. #7
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I go by, as I said, the complexes, which define the roles. As the auxiliary becomes like a "caretaker" (toward others) and associated with a Good Parent complex, it will be mirrored by a "Child" complex (Puer/Puella) that likes to "play" or find "relief".

    So the easiest way to tell which is which is not by so-called "strength" or amount of "use", but that the true aux. as a type-defining preferred function, will have more of a confidence, while the tertiary will be more vulnerable (even though the complex might try to act like it's not, which is "inflation").
    An example might be you finding relief through Ni, but if someone bombards you with too much of it, you may feel overwhelmed.
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  8. #8
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    So the easiest way to tell which is which is not by so-called "strength" or amount of "use", but that the true aux. as a type-defining preferred function, will have more of a confidence, while the tertiary will be more vulnerable (even though the complex might try to act like it's not, which is "inflation").
    An example might be you finding relief through Ni, but if someone bombards you with too much of it, you may feel overwhelmed.
    Or kind of like Si, where I find some stability in it and anchoring myself to the past, but can easily feel caged and enmeshed if someone relies on it too much to the exclusion of Ti and Ne?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  9. #9
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Yes, (Especially being with Ms Guardian Si "parent" here).
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yay! Marmotini has been accredited the status of MBTI guru! Two years ago! How did we miss it?



    That part was interesting, thanks. With the tert being a reflection, it's a valid point to consider it two aux's in a sense... Is it just the extremity between dom and inf the reason we don't consider those two to be equitable? I assume so.
    This was new to you?
    And...
    I don't know who started the tertiary loop theory nonsense then.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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