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You Know You're a Perceiver IF...

Mal12345

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Sorry, I'm not going to be jotting down a list of hilarious traits or stereotypes shared by Perceivers.

I'm feeling rather sick and weak at the moment, so I'll do my best not to offend anybody's intellectual sensibilities.
...............
I've just come back to this after a half-hour, and my physical condition continues to decline rapidly. My wife is refusing to take me to the ER, so I made a deal with her: when I start wheezing, and if the inhaler doesn't help, then she will take me to the ER.

It's not that I can't drive, but it's just safer if she does the driving. You never know how medicated I will end up being and how this will affect my judgment.

Let's see what I can write anyway.

Perceivers (Pe) are defined as those personalities oriented on the external world, while the opposite mode, judgment (Ji), is oriented inward. This produces a character that is lacking in external judgment and so it tends to go to extremes. Internally, where judgment has been refined, moderation in thought and feeling is the key to understanding this mindset.

so Pe is characterized externally by extremes of behavior and lack of judgment. and Ji is characterized by moderation of internal judgment.
In this, note that I am talking about the same personality, not two different personalities.

The extremes of external behavior could be anything from too much working out to overeating. This type is more prone to addiction problems, not that a (different) Ji personality doesn't have addictions, but Pe has the greatest difficulty stopping because of poor external judgment (eg. regarding things like the body and maintaining physical fitness), and a general lack of self-control.

The Ji side of the same personality, on the other hand, punishes the ego relentlessly for not bringing the other side under control, i.e, into union with the Ji side. But that's all it can seem to do is self-punish, make rational plans that never come to fruition, and self-berate endlessly.

I'm tired, I'll continue this later. Probably.
 

pinkgraffiti

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no, i think you should stop now. you're just saying a lot of bs tbh.

" lacking in external judgment and so it tends to go to extremes" - no
"moderation of internal judgment." - no
"too much working out to overeating" - no
"more prone to addiction problems" - - no (aren't you mixing this up with the sexual instinct)?
"punishes the ego relentlessly for not bringing the other side under control" - no it doesn't

I think you're just halucinating because you're not feeling well. get away from the computer.
Also, your statements are not backed up by any facts, so why did you even write them down?
 

Such Irony

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You keep fluttering back and forth between types yet deep down you don't really want to arrive at a definitive type for yourself, because it seems so final and too much closure.
 

Mal12345

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You keep fluttering back and forth between types yet deep down you don't really want to arrive at a definitive type for yourself, because it seems so final and too much closure.

Me? No, I made my mind up about my type 20 years ago.

But if, according to [MENTION=13377]pinkgraffiti[/MENTION], I was "halucinating," then why did Jung write the following? -

"Where the persona is intellectual, the soul is quite certainly sentimental. That the complementary character of the soul is also concerned with the sex-character is a fact which can no longer seriously be doubted. A very feminine woman has a masculine soul, and a very manly man a feminine soul. This opposition is based upon the fact that a man, for instance, is not in all things wholly masculine, but has also certain feminine traits. he, more manly his outer attitude, the more will his womanly traits be effaced; these then appear in the soul. This circumstance explains why it is that the very manly men are most subject to characteristic weaknesses; their attitude to the unconscious has a womanly weakness and impressionability."

I am making a similar distinction between inner and external attitudes. Was Jung "halucinating" too?
 

INTP

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Me? No, I made my mind up about my type 20 years ago.

But if, according to pinkgraffiti, I was "halucinating," then why did Jung write the following? -

"Where the persona is intellectual, the soul is quite certainly sentimental. That the complementary character of the soul is also concerned with the sex-character is a fact which can no longer seriously be doubted. A very feminine woman has a masculine soul, and a very manly man a feminine soul. This opposition is based upon the fact that a man, for instance, is not in all things wholly masculine, but has also certain feminine traits. he, more manly his outer attitude, the more will his womanly traits be effaced; these then appear in the soul. This circumstance explains why it is that the very manly men are most subject to characteristic weaknesses; their attitude to the unconscious has a womanly weakness and impressionability."

I am making a similar distinction between inner and external attitudes. Was Jung "halucinating" too?

what jung is talking there isnt type related but about persona and anima/animus..
 

Mal12345

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what jung is talking there isnt type related but about persona and anima/animus..

Persona is type-related.

"identification with the soul begets an attitude with a predominant orientation towards the inner processes."

"I term the outer attitude, or outer character, the persona, the inner attitude I term the anima, or soul. In the same degree as an attitude is habitual, is it a more or less firmly welded function-complex, with which the ego may be more or less identified."

Is a function-complex type-related?
 

Honor

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If you can't decide whether or not you're really a perceiver.
 

INTP

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Persona is type-related.

"identification with the soul begets an attitude with a predominant orientation towards the inner processes."

"I term the outer attitude, or outer character, the persona, the inner attitude I term the anima, or soul. In the same degree as an attitude is habitual, is it a more or less firmly welded function-complex, with which the ego may be more or less identified."

Is a function-complex type-related?

function doesent necessarily refer to psychological functions used in typology. anima does have something to do with functions tho, but quite differently than you are assuming based on some one quote that may or may not have anything to do with your view. marie von franz saw inferior function as the "gate" from which the anima, shadow etc come through the most(and i havent heard any objections from jung to this idea), as its the most undifferentiated function and thus most strongly in archaic condition with other contents of the unconscious.

for example a ruthless king who dominates his whole kingdom with an iron fist(this is his outer attitude, i.e. persona) might be afraid of night and get scared of shadows, because something in his unconscious could be saying something about someone wanting to assassinate him, thus he reacts to this with fear, even tho he acts out all brave and shit. it doesent matter which type the king is, his anima will still be fearful and that way opposite to his persona.

i hope you dont think that extraverted functions = persona and introverted functions = anima, cuz that would be pretty far off, but also something i could expect from you after all the shit you have been talking :D

edit.
as you mentioned in the quote you posted, persona is the outer character, the way in which the person acts out. for example someone might be realy stoic, aggressive, bubbly etc. these are what persona is about. but ofc type is reflected to persona sometimes to some degree, for example introversion/extraversion is often clearly seen in the persons persona, or that typical anal retentiveness of STJ types and stuff like that.
 

Mal12345

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function doesent necessarily refer to psychological functions used in typology. anima does have something to do with functions tho, but quite differently than you are assuming based on some one quote that may or may not have anything to do with your view. marie von franz saw inferior function as the "gate" from which the anima, shadow etc come through the most(and i havent heard any objections from jung to this idea), as its the most undifferentiated function and thus most strongly in archaic condition with other contents of the unconscious.

for example a ruthless king who dominates his whole kingdom with an iron fist(this is his outer attitude, i.e. persona) might be afraid of night and get scared of shadows, because something in his unconscious could be saying something about someone wanting to assassinate him, thus he reacts to this with fear, even tho he acts out all brave and shit. it doesent matter which type the king is, his anima will still be fearful and that way opposite to his persona.

i hope you dont think that extraverted functions = persona and introverted functions = anima, cuz that would be pretty far off, but also something i could expect from you after all the shit you have been talking :D

If I'm so far off then why do you attempt this intimidation bullcrap? Sounds like I must be onto something, therefore I will continue to pursue it.
 

INTP

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If I'm so far off then why do you attempt this intimidation bullcrap? Sounds like I must be onto something, therefore I will continue to pursue it.

do you often feel intimidated when people try to educate you?
 

Mal12345

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do you often feel intimidated when people try to educate you?

"but also something i could expect from you after all the shit you have been talking"

do your high school teachers talk to you like that?
 

INTP

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"but also something i could expect from you after all the shit you have been talking"

do your high school teachers talk to you like that?

i never went to high school(or that thing thats closest to it in my country)
 

greenfairy

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So you think that the extroverted and introverted functions have a push-pull effect, like the persona and the anima/animus? I don't think that is necessarily true because they are supposed to work together, and the things you are suggesting in the OP seem to imply that they undermine each other. If they have opposite attitudes and inclinations they should be in conflict. In an ENFP for example, it's not the Fi which causes them to appear like a J, it's the Te. Fi is a judging function, and so reigns in Ne, but their goals are complimentary and not in conflict. Sometimes the introverted function which works with the extroverted function as primary or auxiliary rationalizes and justifies excess.

I don't know, you may be on to something- I'll think about it. But these are my thoughts right now.
 

entropie

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So you think that the extroverted and introverted functions have a push-pull effect, like the persona and the anima/animus? I don't think that is necessarily true because they are supposed to work together, and the things you are suggesting in the OP seem to imply that they undermine each other. If they have opposite attitudes and inclinations they should be in conflict. In an ENFP for example, it's not the Fi which causes them to appear like a J, it's the Te. Fi is a judging function, and so reigns in Ne, but their goals are complimentary and not in conflict. Sometimes the introverted function which works with the extroverted function as primary or auxiliary rationalizes and justifies excess.

I don't know, you may be on to something- I'll think about it. But these are my thoughts right now.

If a FiTe user goes J you hardly see any Te at all
 

greenfairy

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If a FiTe user goes J you hardly see any Te at all

Why is that? I mean in the MBTI sense, like structure and organization, which is more Te than Fi.
 
W

WALMART

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I wonder, are Ji types inherently on the other side of the coin?

This all seems Jung 101 - not to undermine your efforts, I am reinforcing how core most of the concepts are. Towards the end, perhaps, I'd have to do a little more thinking, regarding the self-beration. I relate strongly, just don't know if it's universal.
 

Evo

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Sorry, I'm not going to be jotting down a list of hilarious traits or stereotypes shared by Perceivers.

I'm feeling rather sick and weak at the moment, so I'll do my best not to offend anybody's intellectual sensibilities.
...............
I've just come back to this after a half-hour, and my physical condition continues to decline rapidly. My wife is refusing to take me to the ER, so I made a deal with her: when I start wheezing, and if the inhaler doesn't help, then she will take me to the ER.

It's not that I can't drive, but it's just safer if she does the driving. You never know how medicated I will end up being and how this will affect my judgment.

Let's see what I can write anyway.

Perceivers (Pe) are defined as those personalities oriented on the external world, while the opposite mode, judgment (Ji), is oriented inward. This produces a character that is lacking in external judgment and so it tends to go to extremes. Internally, where judgment has been refined, moderation in thought and feeling is the key to understanding this mindset.

so Pe is characterized externally by extremes of behavior and lack of judgment. and Ji is characterized by moderation of internal judgment.
In this, note that I am talking about the same personality, not two different personalities.

The extremes of external behavior could be anything from too much working out to overeating. This type is more prone to addiction problems, not that a (different) Ji personality doesn't have addictions, but Pe has the greatest difficulty stopping because of poor external judgment (eg. regarding things like the body and maintaining physical fitness), and a general lack of self-control.

The Ji side of the same personality, on the other hand, punishes the ego relentlessly for not bringing the other side under control, i.e, into union with the Ji side. But that's all it can seem to do is self-punish, make rational plans that never come to fruition, and self-berate endlessly.

I'm tired, I'll continue this later. Probably.


I'm sad to hear ur sick. Be careful, if u think u need to go to the ER that sounds serious! O_O

I think you should continue on this though!(when ur well) Now, my opinion is that the Pe/Ji people don't have as much of a problem, ESPECIALLY the Ji doms(like an INTP), because their functions don't clash as much for some reason. Or they don't delve into thier own shadows enough, or they are lying to themselves, or they are lying to us.

So my theory on something similar to this that I think relates is...well....as plain as I can put it (may not be the absolute correct language to use):

introverts = softies on the outside, hard on the inside
extraverts = hard on the outside, softy on the inside

You can take it a little further and say the same thing about each individual function. Like Ne is more hard/objective/extreme/far reaching on the outside...but it's really quite goofy on the inside...I am not thinking of the perfect word yet...but the closest I can get is objective right now.
And then Ti would be more reserved/refrained/refined on the outside...but is sharp like glass/cold on the inside

And so far no one has really proven that wrong yet to me through any of my experiences.

I believe that for Je/Pi types, you can see the friction between one's own type a lot more. At least I can with myself. My Ni wants nothing to do with Te and my Te wants nothing to do with my Ni but they still need each other. I could go down the whole list of the rest of my functions how they don't get along. They all have different goals and objectives to obtain.

My ISFJ friend says he does not feel as much conflict between his Si and Fe as I do with my functions. Maybe because he's an introvert and has reflected and gotten rid of shadows, maybe not. :shrug:


Also another theory is that N works better with F (goal wise) and S works better with T (goal wise)...but I'm not sure about that...there's not much backing that up. Just a thought. Maybe it has to do with right brain left brain stuff??



Me? No, I made my mind up about my type 20 years ago.

But if, according to [MENTION=13377]pinkgraffiti[/MENTION], I was "halucinating," then why did Jung write the following? -

"Where the persona is intellectual, the soul is quite certainly sentimental. That the complementary character of the soul is also concerned with the sex-character is a fact which can no longer seriously be doubted. A very feminine woman has a masculine soul, and a very manly man a feminine soul. This opposition is based upon the fact that a man, for instance, is not in all things wholly masculine, but has also certain feminine traits. he, more manly his outer attitude, the more will his womanly traits be effaced; these then appear in the soul. This circumstance explains why it is that the very manly men are most subject to characteristic weaknesses; their attitude to the unconscious has a womanly weakness and impressionability."

I am making a similar distinction between inner and external attitudes. Was Jung "halucinating" too?

That quote is awesome. He was not halucinating lmao!

If a FiTe user goes J you hardly see any Te at all


Can u elaborate some more?
 

entropie

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Why is that? I mean in the MBTI sense, like structure and organization, which is more Te than Fi.

Can u elaborate some more?

A TeFi user is very reasonable in all situations. If he or she has a bad day and goes vertigo, becomes subjective and unreasonably, he or she will most prolly excuse him- or herself the moment the waves have calmed down, which will be pretty soon. Besides that you can always reason with the most assertive Te types, if the arguement you hold is valid.

A FiTe type tho, is super subjective. It is very unlike that he or she has the possibility to accept any different views of the world than their own. If he or she goes vertigo on you, all reason, that would appeal to the Te side, would be lost. Its only the Fi reigning upon you and telling you to do the things exactly her or his way or the highway.

Depends all on the person and their cognitive development, I just wanted to point out that Te or Fe are not the only two functions that participate in the outer world communication; Many people speak out of pure Ti or Fi as well.
 
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