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  1. #1
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Default The Problem With JCF (If You Are Scared Of Change, Don't Read This!)

    I have at times been accused of being against JCF. In fact, I am not. In fact, lately I have been studying Jung's original cognitive types more intently than usual.

    Modern JCF theory is dominated by the unwarranted assumption that MBTI types are created from combinations of Jung's dominant and auxiliary types. Thus:
    ISFJ = Si + Fe; ISTJ = Si + Te;
    ESFJ = Fe + Si; ESTJ = Te + Si;

    INFP = Fi + Ne; INTP = Ti + Ne;
    ENFP = Ne + Fi; ENTP = Ne + Ti;...

    ...and so on.

    Notice, however, that in the first two rows of types, Si, whether as dominant or when relegated to the role of auxiliary, is never part of a Perceptive type but only a Judging type. By the same token, Ne, in the second group, is always part of a Perceptive type, but never a Judging type, even when in the auxiliary position.

    Now if P and J are determined, not by some function-order formula considered valid only by assumption, but originally in Myers-Briggs' terms, as personality categories in their own right, then there is no reason why we can't have an "ISFJ" (in JCF terms, note the scare-quotes) who is, externally, a Perceiver.

    P and J were originally conceived by Myers and Briggs to be externalized components of personality. Does the person generally, for the most part, appear to be: A. Spontaneous, or B. Controlling? A. Fun-loving, or B. Work-oriented?

    Seen in the light of original MBTI theory, JCF quickly falls apart. The Si dominant and auxiliary types can no longer only be considered, controlling, work-oriented J personalities. The possibility is opened up for Si dominant and auxiliary types to be spontaneous and fun-loving.

    Ne types, whether dominant or auxiliary, are no longer considered just part of spontaneous, fun-loving P personality types; they can also be controlling and work-oriented J types.

    So contrary to JCF stereotypes about dominant and auxiliary functions:

    Ni and Si people can have spontaneous and fun-loving personalities.
    Fi and Ti people can have controlling and work-oriented personalities.
    Fe and Te people can have spontaneous and fun-loving personalities.
    Ne and Se people can have controlling and work-oriented personalities.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #2
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    You need to define better what you mean by "spontaneous and fun-loving" vs "controlling and work-oriented" as definitive of a person's entire character.

    What makes one set of traits a dominant one for an individual, versus another set of traits that they can express in the right circumstances? I don't think anyone ever was claiming that J's can never like fun and must always work, and P's are vice-versa.

    And as a bonus question: What type do you think is SO afraid of change that they can't even afford to read your thread? Change isn't even on the table yet, honestly; first you have to make a compelling argument.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #3
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Ni and Si people can have spontaneous and fun-loving personalities.
    Fi and Ti people can have controlling and work-oriented personalities.
    Fe and Te people can have spontaneous and fun-loving personalities.
    Ne and Se people can have controlling and work-oriented personalities.
    True, and Socionics already touches on this a bit, with its switch for dominant Judgers (like how INFP in MBTI generally corresponds to INFj in Socionics). I'm not sure I understand how this goes against anything in JCF, though. A spontaneous and fun-loving ISFJ will still seek external closure because of Fe.

    A more radical departure would be doubly-introverted or doubly-extraverted Perception/Judgment combinations.

  4. #4
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Change isn't even on the table yet, honestly; first you have to make a compelling argument.
    OOOO burn!

    The problem here Mal, is that all you are doing is exposing flaws that are already known about a system that attempts to structure human personality into set boxes and states. Of course there are going to be plenty of examples where the structure just doesn't work.

    This isn't news to anyone. Also if we are discussing unwarranted assumptions this entire theory is essentially just that.

    You or others can disagree of course, but there really is no reason to believe either Jung or Myers/Briggs.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post

    A more radical departure would be doubly-introverted or doubly-extraverted Perception/Judgment combinations.
    I met an INFP on Perc who was trying to popularise exactly that. Unfortunately he, (possibly she can't always tell with INFP's), could never hold it together when structure and logic was involved.

    But it wasn't a bad idea, given the general 'throw-potato-at-the-walls' methods employed by typology theorists.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #5
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    OOOO burn!
    lol. Less a burn, just reality... he has to define better what he means before anyone can buy into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    A more radical departure would be doubly-introverted or doubly-extraverted Perception/Judgment combinations.
    HERETIC!

    Actually, those are already accepted -- except that they're labeled as "unhealthy" versions without changing function order, hence the dom/tert loop concept, etc. Is it possible to experience a Ti/Si combo as a healthy dom/aux rather than malformed dom/tert?

    It's funny we don't really see people talking about FeNe loops.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #6
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Actually, those are already accepted -- except that they're labeled as "unhealthy" versions without changing function order, hence the dom/tert loop concept, etc. Is it possible to experience a Ti/Si combo as a healthy dom/aux rather than malformed dom/tert?

    It's funny we don't really see people talking about FeNe loops.
    Yeah, this was the wall that the aforementioned INFP ran up against. After all why should someone believe in a person who is doubly extraverted without the capacity for introspection or doubly introverted without the capacity for expression?

    Loops have a better reasoning behind them, even if they are still questionable, they are a better degree of questionable than the theory that would produce a gary-gobalot style of personality or Iris-in-the-mind.

    Those are caricatures after all. Besides that INFP thought I was ISTJ so I wanted to break his mental sandcastle.

    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  7. #7
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    What they said. But it's a nice thought. The systems should in theory be internally consistent with each other if they are describing the same thing and they are both true.

  8. #8
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    seems like you find "flaws" when you are just missing some understanding about some issue involving the systems.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  9. #9
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I have at times been accused of being against JCF. In fact, I am not. In fact, lately I have been studying Jung's original cognitive types more intently than usual.

    Modern JCF theory is dominated by the unwarranted assumption that MBTI types are created from combinations of Jung's dominant and auxiliary types. Thus:
    ISFJ = Si + Fe; ISTJ = Si + Te;
    ESFJ = Fe + Si; ESTJ = Te + Si;

    INFP = Fi + Ne; INTP = Ti + Ne;
    ENFP = Ne + Fi; ENTP = Ne + Ti;...

    ...and so on.

    Notice, however, that in the first two rows of types, Si, whether as dominant or when relegated to the role of auxiliary, is never part of a Perceptive type but only a Judging type. By the same token, Ne, in the second group, is always part of a Perceptive type, but never a Judging type, even when in the auxiliary position.

    Now if P and J are determined, not by some function-order formula considered valid only by assumption, but originally in Myers-Briggs' terms, as personality categories in their own right, then there is no reason why we can't have an "ISFJ" (in JCF terms, note the scare-quotes) who is, externally, a Perceiver.

    P and J were originally conceived by Myers and Briggs to be externalized components of personality. Does the person generally, for the most part, appear to be: A. Spontaneous, or B. Controlling? A. Fun-loving, or B. Work-oriented?

    Seen in the light of original MBTI theory, JCF quickly falls apart. The Si dominant and auxiliary types can no longer only be considered, controlling, work-oriented J personalities. The possibility is opened up for Si dominant and auxiliary types to be spontaneous and fun-loving.

    Ne types, whether dominant or auxiliary, are no longer considered just part of spontaneous, fun-loving P personality types; they can also be controlling and work-oriented J types.

    So contrary to JCF stereotypes about dominant and auxiliary functions:

    Ni and Si people can have spontaneous and fun-loving personalities.
    Fi and Ti people can have controlling and work-oriented personalities.
    Fe and Te people can have spontaneous and fun-loving personalities.
    Ne and Se people can have controlling and work-oriented personalities.
    Yes, yes, and of course yes.

    But it's not Jung's/JCF's fault for Katherine/Isabella's epic slip up on the whole J/P thing :P

    This is what happens when you severely underestimate the influence of the dominant/inferior dynamic.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    Yes, yes, and of course yes.

    But it's not Jung's/JCF's fault for Katherine/Isabella's epic slip up on the whole J/P thing :P

    This is what happens when you severely underestimate the influence of the dominant/inferior dynamic.
    Yes to what, yes to what, and of course yes to what?

    I want to know what you think I wrote that was correct.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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