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  1. #71
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    You mispoke by calling the objective side "concretes" and "sensations," when in fact that would limit Te's auxiliary function to Sensing.
    lol no, if you had actually read what i wrote and read jungs descriptions, you would understand that it isnt true. also its funny that you still havent learned that all types use all four functions of thinking, sensing, feeling and intuition. or maybe you have learned that but arent able to think straight. as a reminder; INTJs are Te aux and have inferior Se, ENFPs have tert Te and inferior Si etc etc ISFPs have aux aux Se and inferior Te........

    seriously, are you just playing dumb?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  2. #72
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    lol no, if you had actually read what i wrote and read jungs descriptions, you would understand that it isnt true. also its funny that you still havent learned that all types use all four functions of thinking, sensing, feeling and intuition. or maybe you have learned that but arent able to think straight. as a reminder; INTJs are Te aux and have inferior Se, ENFPs have tert Te and inferior Si etc etc ISFPs have aux aux Se and inferior Te........

    seriously, are you just playing dumb?
    You made a mistake. It's dangerous to make mistakes with me. Because I will correct you.
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  3. #73
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    You made a mistake. It's dangerous to make mistakes with me. Because I will correct you.
    point out the mistake and give proofs that its a mistake while i go buy some food and eat
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  4. #74
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    point out the mistake and give proofs that its a mistake while i go buy some food and eat
    I've already done all this.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #75
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I've already done all this.
    no you havent. all you said was some idea of yours which isnt supported by jung or jungian analysts.

    it kinda sucks when someone isnt capable of understanding what is said and i need to quote same text again, now try to pay closer attention.

    "Sensation, or sensing, is that psychological function which transmits a physical stimulus to perception. It is, therefore, identical with perception."

    "Thinking in general is fed from two sources, firstly from subjective and in the last resort unconscious roots, and secondly from objective data transmitted through sense perceptions. Extraverted thinking is conditioned in a larger measure by these latter factors than by the former. judgment always presupposes a criterion ; for the extraverted judgment, the valid and determining criterion is the standard taken from objective conditions, no matter whether this be directly represented by an objectively perceptible fact, or expressed in an objective idea."

    and in case you are trying to argue that Te isnt just oriented by sensation(isnt concrete), i already addressed that too, but ill explain again. concretism of thinking isnt solely something that Te does, concretism is a general term for orienting according to sensation and this can happen to Ti too, but with Ti its abstracting from sensation, not going back to it like Te does. also Te can deal with objective ideas, like use ideas that were passed on from tradition etc.

    "The criterion of judgment, therefore, as to whether or no a thinking is extraverted, hangs directly upon the question: by which standard is its judgment governed—is it furnished from without, or is its origin subjective? A further criterion is afforded by the direction of the thinker's conclusion, namely, whether or no the thinking has a preferential direction outwards. It is no proof of its extraverted nature that it is preoccupied with concrete objects, since I may be engaging my thoughts with a concrete object, either because I am abstracting my thought from it or because I am concretizing my thought with it. Even if I engage my thinking with concrete things, and to that extent could be described as extraverted, it yet remains both questionable and characteristic as regards the direction my thinking will take; namely, whether in its further course it leads back again to objective data, external facts, and generally accepted ideas, or not."

    do you still disagree with what i said, if so, tell me why and not just say that you already debunked what i said, because you obviously didnt and if you read the quotes, it should be obvious to you that what i said is according to what jung said and if you disagree with what i said, your thoughts about this issue doesent go hand to hand with jungs ideas.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #76
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Yes she is. And you're pretty must just giving a meta-view of the discussion. There must be a little bit of mod left in you. However, I made the time to write that OP while the flu was kicking in for real, even though I desperately wanted not to write it then. Yet you don't have the time to read the discussion in detail.
    haha... once a mod, always a mod, and remember I'm a "modder" of three teenagers too. It doesn't go away, it changes you forever.

    Honestly, I can make a list of 20 priorities in my life right now that revolve around work, my kids, house maintenance, local friends, personal projects, my own mental and physical health, etc., that explain why I don't have any extra brain power to devote to a thread argument that seems to be going nowhere than what I've already invested, in something tangential to my life... but I don't really even want to invest the brain power in that. Just don't assume that I'm "wrong" in the big picture stuff simply because I'm skimming.

    I thought it might have been something worse than the flu because of chest pain. I haven't had the flu in a long, long time. The family and I got flu shots last September, so there must be some wild strain out there. If it's bird flu I'll have to control the urge to start flapping my arms.
    Here is something I do mean as a kindness to you: Do like I'm doing, for today -- do yourself a favor, drop out of the discussion for awhile, and get some rest. It sounds like you're kind of stuck in a particular way of seeing, and your body and mind needs rest, so it can get healthy again. Maybe when you heal up, you can come back with renewed energy and flexibility of thought / additional clarity on the topic.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #77
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Puer is an archetype, which is an imaginal feature of the collective unconscious. When personalized, the archetype becomes a complex. But it can be personalized in different ways. So yes, your description (Where the whole person fits the archetype) is one way, and Beebe's observation (where it's a complex everyone has, which connects with the tertiary) is another way.
    "Imaginal feature."
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    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #78
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The problem in the OP, IMO, is viewing functions as traits rather than thought process or mindsets or even EGOS.
    The personality traits used in the MBTI tests are common indicators, not the functions in themselves.

    Also, Pi & Pe are very different. Pi types are described as having an inner spontaneity, but not an outer one. Outside they can look "fruitless" according to Jung. Jung's primary divide for psychological types was the I/E aspect, after all.

    As a Ji-dom, Je is foreign to me. Ji is said to hardly look like the common view of "judging" (Lenore Thompson, I believe). It's not just the
    "Pe face" that does this, but the nature of Ji itself. That is why the person must repress Je in favor of Ji.

    I woud say that the qualities associated with MBTI J types is due to the dynamic of Pi + Je in people, the way they work off each other. The inferior tends to be experienced as something outside the ego, meaning others may see it frequently in you, but it doesn't feel like you to you. You experience it as not yourself or don't like to admit those traits; you try to repress it. This is why Pi types are less likely to type as P in MBTI because P is defined by Pe, using inferior traits they don't "own".

    As for the influence of the tertiary, the reason why it's viewed in terms of loops is because of an idea of balance. However, that Nardi experiment seems to suggest people use their tertiary a lot, so much so they can look almost indistinguishable from their near-opposite type (ie. INTJ & ISFP). This might explain some common mistypings, such as why a lot of ISFPs may mistype as Ns, etc.
    There is not enough "meat" to tertiary theory to make it solid. "Balance." Ok. So what real purpose does this serve for a particular type?

    "Also, Pi & Pe are very different. Pi types are described as having an inner spontaneity, but not an outer one."

    Nor is there "meat" to the idea of "inner spontaneity." What does this really mean?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #79
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    no you havent. all you said was some idea of yours which isnt supported by jung or jungian analysts.

    it kinda sucks when someone isnt capable of understanding what is said and i need to quote same text again, now try to pay closer attention.

    "Sensation, or sensing, is that psychological function which transmits a physical stimulus to perception. It is, therefore, identical with perception."

    "Thinking in general is fed from two sources, firstly from subjective and in the last resort unconscious roots, and secondly from objective data transmitted through sense perceptions. Extraverted thinking is conditioned in a larger measure by these latter factors than by the former. judgment always presupposes a criterion ; for the extraverted judgment, the valid and determining criterion is the standard taken from objective conditions, no matter whether this be directly represented by an objectively perceptible fact, or expressed in an objective idea."

    and in case you are trying to argue that Te isnt just oriented by sensation(isnt concrete), i already addressed that too, but ill explain again. concretism of thinking isnt solely something that Te does, concretism is a general term for orienting according to sensation and this can happen to Ti too, but with Ti its abstracting from sensation, not going back to it like Te does. also Te can deal with objective ideas, like use ideas that were passed on from tradition etc.

    "The criterion of judgment, therefore, as to whether or no a thinking is extraverted, hangs directly upon the question: by which standard is its judgment governed—is it furnished from without, or is its origin subjective? A further criterion is afforded by the direction of the thinker's conclusion, namely, whether or no the thinking has a preferential direction outwards. It is no proof of its extraverted nature that it is preoccupied with concrete objects, since I may be engaging my thoughts with a concrete object, either because I am abstracting my thought from it or because I am concretizing my thought with it. Even if I engage my thinking with concrete things, and to that extent could be described as extraverted, it yet remains both questionable and characteristic as regards the direction my thinking will take; namely, whether in its further course it leads back again to objective data, external facts, and generally accepted ideas, or not."

    do you still disagree with what i said, if so, tell me why and not just say that you already debunked what i said, because you obviously didnt and if you read the quotes, it should be obvious to you that what i said is according to what jung said and if you disagree with what i said, your thoughts about this issue doesent go hand to hand with jungs ideas.
    I disagree with this:

    "Te is concrete, as in being led by sensation..." @INTP
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #80
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I disagree with this:

    "Te is concrete, as in being led by sensation..." INTP
    if one perceives an idea coming from someone else, dont you think that it enters to the persons mind via sensation?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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