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  1. #51
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    But as you can see from INTP's response, even when I quote directly from Jung I'm still "wrong."
    I'm not participating in the thread because I don't have the time to study the discussion in detail, I noticed your comments on an overview. All I see is you guys doing the back-and-forth, but I can't really judge the veracity of the argument right now.

    I do have to say (well, I did say), your approach isn't much different, you often assume your argument and that others are tracking you. That's what's either ironic or bewildering. And here you're tossing in Jung to say you're "right," etc. Why should you merely quoting Jung mean anything, either way? It's the argument that matters.

    I see she got around to answering my question over night while I was in a drugged up stupor.
    She's such an opportunist!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #52
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    @msg_v2 jung didnt say about traditional. what he is talking there is about facts that are coming from external source. what he is doing there is a differentiation between concretistic thinking that is introverted vs extraverted. Te is concrete, as in being led by sensation, jung is just saying that Ti can also be led by sensation, but the difference between the two is that Te uses objective measures when thinking is led by sensation, but Ti does not.
    Jung did not say that Te is led by sensation. He said that "that the extraverted intellect, i.e., the mind that is orientated by objective data, is actually the only one recognized [by society]."[430]. Jung stated this in the context of recognizing the existence of the introverted intellect, which is "a kind that is neither orientated by the immediate objective experience nor is it concerned with general and objectively derived ideas." [430]
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #53
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    All of it, except for the part where you pin this problem on JCF, when it's actually the opposite.

    Thereby making it all correct and all incorrect at the same time, in a sense.
    That sounds rather impossible, doesn't it? At any rate, I blame modern JCF, which is not original Jungian theory, and its attempt to reduce MBTI types to functions. But they are not based on functions. MBTI types are based on Sensors, not Si or Se; on Intuitives, not Ni or Ne; on Feelers, not Fi or Fe; and on Thinkers, not Ti or Te.

    Yes you can have those without their being functions since, for example, thinking is simply a mental process in itself, with the idea of tacking on an I/E attitude an additional feature provided by Jung.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #54
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not participating in the thread because I don't have the time to study the discussion in detail, I noticed your comments on an overview. All I see is you guys doing the back-and-forth, but I can't really judge the veracity of the argument right now.

    I do have to say (well, I did say), your approach isn't much different, you often assume your argument and that others are tracking you. That's what's either ironic or bewildering. And here you're tossing in Jung to say you're "right," etc. Why should you merely quoting Jung mean anything, either way? It's the argument that matters.



    She's such an opportunist!
    Yes she is. And you're pretty must just giving a meta-view of the discussion. There must be a little bit of mod left in you. However, I made the time to write that OP while the flu was kicking in for real, even though I desperately wanted not to write it then. Yet you don't have the time to read the discussion in detail.

    I thought it might have been something worse than the flu because of chest pain. I haven't had the flu in a long, long time. The family and I got flu shots last September, so there must be some wild strain out there. If it's bird flu I'll have to control the urge to start flapping my arms.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #55
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Ego is the central operating structure within consciousness, complexes are the structures in personal unconscious and archetypes are the structures of collective unconscious.

    "Archetypes constitute the structure of the collective unconscious - they are psychic innate dispositions to experience and represent basic human behavior and situations." http://www.carl-jung.net/collective_unconscious.html

    "Today we also need to deal with structures. As i said earlier by structures of the psyche, i mean the components or the units that exist within the psyche. In brief, these are the ego, complexes and archetypes... The structure within consciousness is the ego.. Personal unconscious contains complexes.. The structures within the collective unconscious are archetypes." Jung Podcast #2 – Jung’s Model of the Psyche -> http://jungian.ca/resources/jung-podcasts/
    If it's on the internet it must be true, right? Why don't you quote directly from Jung, the founder of all this, stating that archetypes are structures? Because the quote doesn't exist.


    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    nah you arent too nit-picky, just wrong


    no
    Yes.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #56
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    @msg_v2 jung didnt say about traditional. what he is talking there is about facts that are coming from external source. what he is doing there is a differentiation between concretistic thinking that is introverted vs extraverted. Te is concrete, as in being led by sensation, jung is just saying that Ti can also be led by sensation, but the difference between the two is that Te uses objective measures when thinking is led by sensation, but Ti does not.
    You're explaining the quote while contradicting it.

    "Extraverted thinking, therefore, need not necessarily be a merely concretistic thinking..." Jung

    "Te is concrete, as in being led by sensation..." @INTP
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #57
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Jung did not say that Te is led by sensation. He said that "that the extraverted intellect, i.e., the mind that is orientated by objective data, is actually the only one recognized [by society]."[430]. Jung stated this in the context of recognizing the existence of the introverted intellect, which is "a kind that is neither orientated by the immediate objective experience nor is it concerned with general and objectively derived ideas." [430]
    "Thinking in general is fed from two sources, firstly from subjective and in the last resort unconscious roots, and secondly from objective data transmitted through sense perceptions.

    Extraverted thinking is conditioned in a larger measure by these latter factors than by the former. judgment always presupposes a criterion ; for the extraverted judgment, the valid and determining criterion is the standard taken from objective conditions, no matter whether this be directly represented by an objectively perceptible fact, or expressed in an objective idea ; for an objective idea, even when subjectively sanctioned, is equally external and objective in origin. Extraverted thinking, therefore, need not necessarily be a merely concretistic thinking it may equally well be a purely ideal thinking, if, for instance, it can be shown that the ideas with which it is engaged are to a great extent borrowed from without, i.e. are transmitted by tradition and education."

    The underlined are Te being concrete, but it can also be about objective ideas, like education, tradition etc. but those things are also learned through sensation, so..

    But as jung mentions here:

    " It is no proof of its extraverted nature that it is preoccupied with concrete objects, since I may be engaging my thoughts with a concrete object, either because I am abstracting my thought from it or because I am concretizing my thought with it. Even if I engage my thinking with concrete things, and to that extent could be described as extraverted, it yet remains both questionable and characteristic as regards the direction my thinking will take; namely, whether in its further course it leads back again to objective data, external facts, and generally accepted ideas, or not."

    Ti can be led by sensation aswell, but it abstracts from sensation, which is also concretistic thinking, but is not extraverted thinking as it doesent lead back to the object.

    One question, how do you think someone can observe objective evidence if its not through sensation?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  8. #58
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    You're explaining the quote while contradicting it.

    "Extraverted thinking, therefore, need not necessarily be a merely concretistic thinking..." Jung

    "Te is concrete, as in being led by sensation..." INTP
    im not contradicting what i said, you just dont understand what i said because you clearly dont understand concretism and extraversion of thinking very well
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  9. #59
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    If it's on the internet it must be true, right? Why don't you quote directly from Jung, the founder of all this, stating that archetypes are structures? Because the quote doesn't exist.




    Yes.
    john betts is an zürich trained jungian analyst.

    i didnt care to go through all books and articles from jung to search one quote(you apparently did, as you claim that the quote doesent exist), so i just looked up a quote which i remember where it is. i suggest you to go learn more jung and it will become obvious to you too. i think most people will see it as obvious that if something is organized and is a part of a bigger system, the organized part can be called a structure within the bigger system. seriously im starting to doubt whether you are an INTP or not, because this sort of logic should come naturally for INTP..
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  10. #60
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    "Thinking in general is fed from two sources, firstly from subjective and in the last resort unconscious roots, and secondly from objective data transmitted through sense perceptions.

    Extraverted thinking is conditioned in a larger measure by these latter factors than by the former. judgment always presupposes a criterion ; for the extraverted judgment, the valid and determining criterion is the standard taken from objective conditions, no matter whether this be directly represented by an objectively perceptible fact, or expressed in an objective idea ; for an objective idea, even when subjectively sanctioned, is equally external and objective in origin. Extraverted thinking, therefore, need not necessarily be a merely concretistic thinking it may equally well be a purely ideal thinking, if, for instance, it can be shown that the ideas with which it is engaged are to a great extent borrowed from without, i.e. are transmitted by tradition and education."

    The underlined are Te being concrete, but it can also be about objective ideas, like education, tradition etc. but those things are also learned through sensation, so..
    And I learned mathematics through sensation. So what? We couldn't get along very well in life without sensation: eyes, ears, nose, skin, tongue. Yours is a non-point that speaks only to normal human physiology.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    But as jung mentions here:

    " It is no proof of its extraverted nature that it is preoccupied with concrete objects, since I may be engaging my thoughts with a concrete object, either because I am abstracting my thought from it or because I am concretizing my thought with it. Even if I engage my thinking with concrete things, and to that extent could be described as extraverted, it yet remains both questionable and characteristic as regards the direction my thinking will take; namely, whether in its further course it leads back again to objective data, external facts, and generally accepted ideas, or not."

    Ti can be led by sensation aswell, but it abstracts from sensation, which is also concretistic thinking, but is not extraverted thinking as it doesent lead back to the object.

    One question, how do you think someone can observe objective evidence if its not through sensation?
    As I said, if all you're talking about is physiological sensation, it's a non-point, and it's unworthy of being stated in the same context as Jung's revolutionary theory.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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