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  1. #31
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Someone here asked me if I have a virus - like a cold virus, not a computer virus - and yes I have one, several million I'm sure. And I'm somewhat doped up but it's nothing really powerful. (If I took the stronger meds I would be unbearable.) And I have a really loud and annoying ringing in my right ear, and a lesser ringing in my left ear, which are very distracting. These sounds get louder when I'm on these meds.

    What I mean by "parasitizing" is ignoring the OP's thesis and then using some idea in it to cause thread drift. Yes this almost always happens. But it shouldn't be happening, on average, before the fifth page or so of the thread. And certainly not on the first page. After that first page, it was all downhill.

    My OP didn't concern all the various notions of what a P or J person is like, or how those characteristics could be caused by something else. I'm not talking about causes anyway. Theories don't rely on causes, they are just logical constructs.

    The point of the OP is to take JCF to task. I think it did so very effectively, and nobody has really agreed or disagreed with it. And when I asked someone what she agreed with about it, I got no response (because she didn't read it).
    Well, sorry, but I thought that would help shed light on your critique of JCF. I do tend to express things in terms of "cause", but point was that yes, these are theories, and they can't be turned into hard stereotypes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    "Tree" is also an archetype.
    There are many archetypes. It's just a matter of determining which ones fit which situations, and the way the tertiary is used does seem to fit the notion of a "puer".
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  2. #32
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Stereotypes aren't my main point, it is the theory behind them I'm tackling here. But if we talk purely about stereotypes, everybody mistakes that for some kind of typism (like racism, only about types). Maybe not you, but a lot of people do.
    I think the functions are useful for understanding thought processes, and maybe behaviors, and not so useful for understanding what someone's hobbies are or something.

    I may be mistundertanding, but it seems to me that, in your OP, you are saying that MBTI and JCF are different systems, and don't correspond to each other.


    What do you consider to be more accurate MBTI, or JCF? I'm not clear enough on your positions with this things, so I need more information. My guess is that you don't think highly of JCF, and think more highly of MBTI.

    I am inclined to reject the J = organized, P = spontaneous dichotomy. I think most people exemplify both traits in different situations, and I'm not sure that people even have a clear preference for one over the other. I have a clear preference for thinking over feeling, to be sure, but if you ask me whether I'm an "organized" person or not, I would say "yes", if it's in reference to my understanding of the world. I would say "no" if it's regarding my apartment. Sometimes I benefit from having things scheduled out and an object of focus. Other times, I like to just do things in the moment.

    I think looking at someone's room, and determining whether that person is P or J is too unreliable. Maybe through a lot of effort, they trained themselves to organize their stuff. I don't think you "change" your type, you just change your understanding of it. Type is nature. So what does that mean if someone starts organizing their room? I doubt it means that their "natural" thinking styles have changed.

    Where does JCF say that, for instance, Ni and Si, people cannot have fun loving and spontaneous personalities? Did Jung ever say that? I apologize if my understanding of these topics is too rudimentary to participate in this discussion. I do wish to learn more, and that's one of the reasons I'm here.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  3. #33
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Puer is an archetype, which is an imaginal feature of the collective unconscious. When personalized, the archetype becomes a complex. But it can be personalized in different ways. So yes, your description (Where the whole person fits the archetype) is one way, and Beebe's observation (where it's a complex everyone has, which connects with the tertiary) is another way.
    archetypes are structures of the collective unconscious. yes when archetype is personalized, it comes trough personal complexes(structures of the personal unconscious), but the thing is that not everyone has puer complex, those who have a puer complex it grips a really big part of the person. i mean without those descriptions i mentioned, its not personalized into a complex and the person doesent have a puer complex(but beebean view claims that he does, which contradicts jungian view of archetypal complex). the whole idea on archetypal complexes and archetypes is that they are extremely energetic. the whole idea of introversion and extraversion is that there are two directions of energy flowing in, one trough eyes, skin and what ever external sources which transfer energy from external world via mechanical force(on skin), photons(eye sight) etc or from the inner world; archetypes. many jungians go as far in saying that even parts of our bodies are archetypes, as they are evolutionary inherited structures within the psyche(the whole body is counted as part of the psyche by some). but now im just rambling cuz just a tiny bit drunk , but anyways i could accept beebean model better if it didnt copy jungs terms and misuse them so violently.
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  4. #34
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    "Tree" is also an archetype.
    no
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  5. #35
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    archetypes are structures of the collective unconscious. yes when archetype is personalized, it comes trough personal complexes(structures of the personal unconscious), but the thing is that not everyone has puer complex, those who have a puer complex it grips a really big part of the person. i mean without those descriptions i mentioned, its not personalized into a complex and the person doesent have a puer complex(but beebean view claims that he does, which contradicts jungian view of archetypal complex). the whole idea on archetypal complexes and archetypes is that they are extremely energetic. the whole idea of introversion and extraversion is that there are two directions of energy flowing in, one trough eyes, skin and what ever external sources which transfer energy from external world via mechanical force(on skin), photons(eye sight) etc or from the inner world; archetypes. many jungians go as far in saying that even parts of our bodies are archetypes, as they are evolutionary inherited structures within the psyche(the whole body is counted as part of the psyche by some). but now im just rambling cuz just a tiny bit drunk , but anyways i could accept beebean model better if it didnt copy jungs terms and misuse them so violently.
    Beebe extended Jung's idea. I don't think Jung created an exhaustive (or even complete) theory on these things. An archetype can be manfested more than one way.
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  6. #36
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Beebe extended Jung's idea. I don't think Jung created an exhaustive (or even complete) theory on these things. An archetype can be manfested more than one way.
    but you see, if it were an extension, it would follow the original idea and add to it, beebes idea just changes the whole concept, but uses same words.

    its like game and expansion pack for it vs rip off of a game
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  7. #37
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I don't think it changes the whole concept; it just applies it to something within the ego of every type connected to the functions; rather than ONLY being a role a single ego can fall into.
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I think the functions are useful for understanding thought processes, and maybe behaviors, and not so useful for understanding what someone's hobbies are or something.

    I may be mistundertanding, but it seems to me that, in your OP, you are saying that MBTI and JCF are different systems, and don't correspond to each other.
    E/I don’t mean the same thing in the two systems, therefore they don’t theoretically correspond. J and P are externally recognized in the MBTI, but not internally, therefore the two systems don’t theoretically correspond.

    But I agree with you that “rational” corresponds with “judging,” etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    What do you consider to be more accurate MBTI, or JCF? I'm not clear enough on your positions with this things, so I need more information. My guess is that you don't think highly of JCF, and think more highly of MBTI.
    I don’t think highly of the way JCF has taken over the MBTI; to me it's somewhat analogous to the way the Mormon church took over the Boy Scouts of America.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I am inclined to reject the J = organized, P = spontaneous dichotomy. I think most people exemplify both traits in different situations, and I'm not sure that people even have a clear preference for one over the other. I have a clear preference for thinking over feeling, to be sure, but if you ask me whether I'm an "organized" person or not, I would say "yes", if it's in reference to my understanding of the world. I would say "no" if it's regarding my apartment. Sometimes I benefit from having things scheduled out and an object of focus. Other times, I like to just do things in the moment.
    Do you agree with Jung’s “Rational” versus “Irrational” dichotomy?

    J and P are not situational. They speak to lifestyle. Based on Jung’s descriptions of the rational and irrational types, perhaps the best way to sum up the difference in their respective lifestyles would be “traditional” versus “non-traditional.” (Of course that tradition depends on cultural milieu.)

    So when the MBTI asks about “organized” versus “spontaneous,” it’s asking whether you like to plan ahead in most things (it doesn’t have to be everything), and stick to the plan; or do you prefer (most of the time) to “play it by ear” and “go with the flow” as you go through life.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I think looking at someone's room, and determining whether that person is P or J is too unreliable.
    I’ve been fighting against that kind of typology almost from day one here. I distinctly recall a thread in which someone was trying to type her (female) boss. She went with Perceiver because of her boss’s messy desk. I fought against this notion for pages and got nowhere. I wasn’t calling her a J or P, I was just arguing that this isn’t the way to go about doing typology.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Maybe through a lot of effort, they trained themselves to organize their stuff. I don't think you "change" your type, you just change your understanding of it. Type is nature. So what does that mean if someone starts organizing their room? I doubt it means that their "natural" thinking styles have changed.
    I’ve also argued against the notion that “type is nature,” but have gotten nowhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Where does JCF say that, for instance, Ni and Si, people cannot have fun loving and spontaneous personalities? Did Jung ever say that? I apologize if my understanding of these topics is too rudimentary to participate in this discussion. I do wish to learn more, and that's one of the reasons I'm here.
    Rational types are not, by definition, fun-loving or spontaneous. But that’s not to say they don’t have their moments, in reality, when they express their fun sides. P and J are designed to be rules, not to point to the exceptions and say “to hell with typology because it’s not an absolute.” A P personality is, as a rule, fun-loving and spontaneous; theoretically, they are so by definition.

    Never mind me, I’m just a lone voice crying in the desiccated wilderness of what typology has become over the last 20 years or so.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    no
    Yes.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #40
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    archetypes are structures of the collective unconscious.
    Archetypes aren't, strictly speaking, structures. Or am I being too nit-picky?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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