User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 89

  1. #11
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    lol. Less a burn, just reality... he has to define better what he means before anyone can buy into it.



    HERETIC!

    Actually, those are already accepted -- except that they're labeled as "unhealthy" versions without changing function order, hence the dom/tert loop concept, etc. Is it possible to experience a Ti/Si combo as a healthy dom/aux rather than malformed dom/tert?

    It's funny we don't really see people talking about FeNe loops.
    Just this:
    http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive...disorders-480/
    "ENTP/ESFJ: Ne/Fe or Fe/Ne--Narcissistic Personality Disorder. This type often behaves impulsively and manipulatively, needing constant approval and admiration from others, running around investing in new thing after new thing but never developing the self-confidence of a strong subjective perspective. Fe used negatively may use its awareness of the cultural standards of others to intentionally offend or upset them, in order to service Ne's curiosity about the patterns in their responses. If Ti/Si were working properly, it would give the user a balancing sense of personal, subjective importance and free him of his dependence upon the adulation and unconditional acceptance of others. (Horrible example: Patrick Bateman from American Psycho.)"

    But if you really want to talk about it, you're always free to do so.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Just this:
    http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive...disorders-480/
    "ENTP/ESFJ: Ne/Fe or Fe/Ne--Narcissistic Personality Disorder. This type often behaves impulsively and manipulatively, needing constant approval and admiration from others, running around investing in new thing after new thing but never developing the self-confidence of a strong subjective perspective. Fe used negatively may use its awareness of the cultural standards of others to intentionally offend or upset them, in order to service Ne's curiosity about the patterns in their responses. If Ti/Si were working properly, it would give the user a balancing sense of personal, subjective importance and free him of his dependence upon the adulation and unconditional acceptance of others. (Horrible example: Patrick Bateman from American Psycho.)"

    But if you really want to talk about it, you're always free to do so.
    Lol, Sim.

    Figures...

    Well, is it possible to have a "healthy" Fe/Ne setup with those two traits remaining strong without being balanced in some way by introverted functions... or are the introverted functions NECESSARY to stabilize the personality?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,438

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I have at times been accused of being against JCF. In fact, I am not. In fact, lately I have been studying Jung's original cognitive types more intently than usual.

    Modern JCF theory is dominated by the unwarranted assumption that MBTI types are created from combinations of Jung's dominant and auxiliary types. Thus:
    ISFJ = Si + Fe; ISTJ = Si + Te;
    ESFJ = Fe + Si; ESTJ = Te + Si;

    INFP = Fi + Ne; INTP = Ti + Ne;
    ENFP = Ne + Fi; ENTP = Ne + Ti;...

    ...and so on.

    Notice, however, that in the first two rows of types, Si, whether as dominant or when relegated to the role of auxiliary, is never part of a Perceptive type but only a Judging type. By the same token, Ne, in the second group, is always part of a Perceptive type, but never a Judging type, even when in the auxiliary position.

    Now if P and J are determined, not by some function-order formula considered valid only by assumption, but originally in Myers-Briggs' terms, as personality categories in their own right, then there is no reason why we can't have an "ISFJ" (in JCF terms, note the scare-quotes) who is, externally, a Perceiver.

    P and J were originally conceived by Myers and Briggs to be externalized components of personality. Does the person generally, for the most part, appear to be: A. Spontaneous, or B. Controlling? A. Fun-loving, or B. Work-oriented?

    Seen in the light of original MBTI theory, JCF quickly falls apart. The Si dominant and auxiliary types can no longer only be considered, controlling, work-oriented J personalities. The possibility is opened up for Si dominant and auxiliary types to be spontaneous and fun-loving.

    Ne types, whether dominant or auxiliary, are no longer considered just part of spontaneous, fun-loving P personality types; they can also be controlling and work-oriented J types.

    So contrary to JCF stereotypes about dominant and auxiliary functions:

    Ni and Si people can have spontaneous and fun-loving personalities.
    Fi and Ti people can have controlling and work-oriented personalities.
    Fe and Te people can have spontaneous and fun-loving personalities.
    Ne and Se people can have controlling and work-oriented personalities.
    There are other factors in the general behaviors of things like "controlling", "work-oriented", "fun loving", etc. Particularly informing/directing and structure/motive (both of which are "people vs task focus", which describes those traits you mentioned), and even to a certain extent, cooperative/pragmatic (which might shape how fast one takes "control"; i.e. self-initiated action).
    These are all shaped by both J/P and T/F. (I/E may also affect this to some extent too).

    Myers had determined that people who extravert judgment, or perception will have some things in common. It will be more of a mindset, than necessary behaviors, though they often come out that way. But not always, of course.

    The difference is what you mean by "judgment" or "perceiving" type. To Jung, it was the dominant, while to Myers, it was the extraverted class of function. The descriptions you're talking about, which involve people's interaction with each other (called "affective") will naturally be shaped by the second definition.
    Dominant function will not determine those things. Dominant will determine whether your ego's primary perspective is taking in information, or making decisions with it, but it's the standard of those perspectives that determine the function's attitudes, which shape those behaviors, and thus are what are represented by J/P.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  4. #14
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Lol, Sim.

    Figures...

    Well, is it possible to have a "healthy" Fe/Ne setup with those two traits remaining strong without being balanced in some way by introverted functions... or are the introverted functions NECESSARY to stabilize the personality?
    I guess that would be Jung's notion of a stable personality. He wrote about the dominant function burying the others; but he wrote nothing about other functions taking over the auxiliary role when this happens. Sim didn't invent tertiary theory, he's only theorizing that tertiaries play a role in personality disorders. Now what it means, function-wise, when an individual has many personality disorders is a question he apparently didn't think of.

    As for this Ne/Fe stuff, I can identify with parts of the description, but I am neither narcissistic nor Fe tertiary.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #15
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    There are other factors in the general behaviors of things like "controlling", "work-oriented", "fun loving", etc. Particularly informing/directing and structure/motive (both of which are "people vs task focus", which describes those traits you mentioned), and even to a certain extent, cooperative/pragmatic (which might shape how fast one takes "control"; i.e. self-initiated action).
    These are all shaped by both J/P and T/F. (I/E may also affect this to some extent too).

    Myers had determined that people who extravert judgment, or perception will have some things in common. It will be more of a mindset, than necessary behaviors, though they often come out that way. But not always, of course.

    The difference is what you mean by "judgment" or "perceiving" type. To Jung, it was the dominant, while to Myers, it was the extraverted class of function. The descriptions you're talking about, which involve people's interaction with each other (called "affective") will naturally be shaped by the second definition.
    Dominant function will not determine those things. Dominant will determine whether your ego's primary perspective is taking in information, or making decisions with it, but it's the standard of those perspectives that determine the function's attitudes, which shape those behaviors, and thus are what are represented by J/P.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #16
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    CROW
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Socionics
    LII None
    Posts
    9,037

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The difference is what you mean by "judgment" or "perceiving" type. To Jung, it was the dominant, while to Myers, it was the extraverted class of function. The descriptions you're talking about, which involve people's interaction with each other (called "affective") will naturally be shaped by the second definition.
    .
    Yup. In this regard, socionics appears to be closer to Jung. I'm considered a judging type because my primary is the judging function of introverted thinking.

    I wonder if the auxiliary function is actually as important for determining personality as the four letter/three letter(socionics) codes seem to indicate. As I understand it, Jung placed a lot of importance on the inferior function, and said very little about the auxiliary and secondary. The inferior function recognizes things that are unconscious. It describes what your struggle is, what your internal conflicts are. The inferior functions will "throw off" your primary. Inferior functions make people complex instead of just tidy archetypes. They seem to play a large role in the personality.

    As for the tertiary, if the "loop theory" is correct, than loops reflect the natural preferences and tendencies of a person. The third function is supposed to be easier to use then second function, if less likely to be used well, according to the "loop theory". Thus, it will be more common for an INTP to use Si, for instance, than to use Ne. Ne often requires conscious effort, while Si is more automatic. It seems odd, then, that the four letter/three letter codes include a description of a primary function and an auxiliary function, instead of a tertiary and inferior function.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  7. #17
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Yup. In this regard, socionics appears to be closer to Jung. I'm considered a judging type because my primary is the judging function of introverted thinking.

    I wonder if the auxiliary function is actually as important for determining personality as the four letter/three letter(socionics) codes seem to indicate. As I understand it, Jung placed a lot of importance on the inferior function, and said very little about the auxiliary and secondary. The inferior function recognizes things that are unconscious. It describes what your struggle is, what your internal conflicts are. The inferior functions will "throw off" your primary. Inferior functions make people complex instead of just tidy archetypes. They seem to play a large role in the personality.

    As for the tertiary, if the "loop theory" is correct, than loops reflect the natural preferences and tendencies of a person. The third function is supposed to be easier to use then second function, if less likely to be used well, according to the "loop theory". Thus, it will be more common for an INTP to use Si, for instance, than to use Ne. Ne often requires conscious effort, while Si is more automatic. It seems odd, then, that the four letter/three letter codes include a description of a primary function and an auxiliary function, instead of a tertiary and inferior function.
    I don't know where you got most of this information. But this subthread is a good example of how people want to dismiss everything I say and then simply talk about their own thing.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #18
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    CROW
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Socionics
    LII None
    Posts
    9,037

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I don't know where you got most of this information. But this subthread is a good example of how people want to dismiss everything I say and then simply talk about their own thing.
    From hanging out in forums like this? Wikisocion has helped too. And if my sources are so inferior, what are your sources?

    And it has nothing to do with you, but more to do with the fact that my ideal communication environment allows for a natural flow of discussion, rather than a rigid demand to stay "on topic".

    Honestly, I'm confused, because you claim to be refuting JCF, but it seems like you're actually refuting MBTI and the MBTI stereotypes of "judging" and "perceiving" types. If you can give me an explanation of how I'm incorrect with this, I'll be happy to engage in the discussion. Where does Jung imply that "judging" types are stubborn anal-retentive people?

    When Jung describes extroverted thinking in "psychological types" for instance, he says nothing about them being stubborn and anal retentive, unless I've missed something.

    Perhaps you need to give me your definition of what you mean by JCF?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  9. #19
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    From hanging out in forums like this? Wikisocion has helped too. And if my sources are so inferior, what are your sources?

    And it has nothing to do with you, but more to do with the fact that my ideal communication environment allows for a natural flow of discussion, rather than a rigid demand to stay "on topic".

    Honestly, I'm confused, because you claim to be refuting JCF, but it seems like you're actually refuting MBTI and the MBTI stereotypes of "judging" and "perceiving" types. If you can give me an explanation of how I'm incorrect with this, I'll be happy to engage in the discussion. Where does Jung imply that "judging" types are stubborn anal-retentive people?

    When Jung describes extroverted thinking in "psychological types" for instance, he says nothing about them being stubborn and anal retentive, unless I've missed something.

    Perhaps you need to give me your definition of what you mean by JCF?
    I'll start out by saying that although I may never know exactly what @Eric B was talking about, I do know it was only side-related to my OP.

    JCF stands for Jungian Cognitive Functions (as you know), and the theory relates both to Jung's original theory as well as to developments in the theory made by others.

    The MBTI is a personality survey created by Isabel Briggs Myers and her mother, Katherine Cook Briggs. It is a conglomeration of Jung's psychological types and Myers-Briggs' own ideas about personality types.

    I'm not usually one to make rigid demands, but time and time again on this forum I am greeted primarily by thread drift from those who have no interest in reading the OP much less understand it, and who only care to parade forth their own views by parasitizing mine.

    I didn't use the phrase "stubborn anal-retentive people"; and I don't know that Jung actually referred to judging types.

    But if I were to use @Eric B's standard of what should constitute a decent OP, I should have listed about 2 dozen characteristics for both perceivers and judgers, thus rendering my OP completely unreadable.

    My thinking has nothing to do with stereotypes, but what is a judger or perceiver in theory.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #20
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,438

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    As for the tertiary, if the "loop theory" is correct, than loops reflect the natural preferences and tendencies of a person. The third function is supposed to be easier to use then second function, if less likely to be used well, according to the "loop theory". Thus, it will be more common for an INTP to use Si, for instance, than to use Ne. Ne often requires conscious effort, while Si is more automatic. It seems odd, then, that the four letter/three letter codes include a description of a primary function and an auxiliary function, instead of a tertiary and inferior function.
    It's not about being “easier to use”; it's just a defense the ego runs to, because it's the next function in the dominant attitude. (It's the Puer complex that orients it this way).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

Similar Threads

  1. Do you see the problem with typing others? Is it worth it?
    By Chancelade in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 01-23-2014, 07:37 PM
  2. Replies: 91
    Last Post: 01-23-2011, 07:49 PM
  3. [MBTItm] ISTj Ultimatum from ENFP-(pref. if you are famaliar with us)
    By NetJunkie2 in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 10-24-2010, 02:53 AM
  4. What happens if you are in the middle?
    By Jon_sparky in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 03-23-2010, 05:54 PM
  5. Replies: 35
    Last Post: 03-15-2010, 10:46 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO