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  1. #41
    girl with a pretty smile Honor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    I'm very non-confrontational on the whole, but have occasional periods of anxiety when I react to perceived attacks and threats with disproportionate paranoia and force.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Chiharu's Avatar
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    I hold a lot in, but if I'm tired or you've badly insulted one of my cherished values HEAR ME ROAR!!!!!!
    Be soft. Do not let the world make you hard. Do not let pain make you hate. Do not let the bitterness steal your sweetness." ― Kurt Vonnegut

    ENFP. 7w6 – 4w3 – 1w9 sx/so. Aries. Dilettante. Overly anxious optimist.

  3. #43
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    It depends on how mad I am and at whom. I have to really be pushed to get really angry, but if I have an actual problem with someone I tell them as soon as possible, and I try to be direct and civil about it. I don't like conflict, but I don't mind honest discussion at all. I don't even mind things getting a little heated. I just don't like the threat of people overreacting. I do have a little trouble knowing whether things actually bother me or if I am just being annoyed for no good reason, and so it usually takes me some time thinking about an incident and talking to other people to decide it was in fact inappropriate- and then I tell them about it (if I'm not immediately angry). So that could be construed as passive aggressive, but it really isn't.

    I tend to view conflict as a problem to be solved, so from my perspective it isn't something to get emotional about- but I project all kinds of things onto other people and just expect them to overreact- so that's why it scares me. I get emotional when I feel the other person is not willing to solve the problem.

    My ENFP sister seems to not have a problem being assertive.

    *disclaimer: I may not be NF.*
    I see you're still going back and forth, as you've since put an NT type back.
    Well, you sound a lot like me, and it's not from NF.

    Conflict behavior is shaped by both temperament and Interaction Style. But in slightly different ways. Both (patterned after classic temperament) can be defined in terms of "expressiveness" and "responsiveness". Conflict will be more heated with high expressiveness and/or low responsiveness. The classic temperament that fits both poles is the Choleric.
    Now, Keirsey said the NF was the Choleric based simply on them being "emotional". But when I saw that it was a very peace-loving, conflict avoidant temperament, I knew something was wrong with that.

    I eventually figured that "expressiveness" in his theory is represented by cooperative/pragmatic, and responsiveness is in a dimension Berens added to his theory; structure/motive. NF is cooperative (reserved) and motive-focused ("responsive" or people-focused). This combination (basically, more passive, and yielding to others) will be very conflict avoidant. However, in my matching it to a new addition to classic temperament, called Supine, that temperament is described as needing affirmation, and when not getting it, they feel used, and may react, possibly violently. This (a more reactive role in conflict) fits what people are saying here. (NF could also be Phlegmatic, which will be less passive and yielding, and more stubborn when pushed, but otherwise is more "diplomatic", which is the "skills set" Keirsey matched NF to).

    Then, there's Interaction Style, which will affect this as well, particularly in terms of how quick a person is to react (despite the Keirseyan or "conative" temperament). Extroverts (expressive) will have quick, often hot reactions. Directive/informative, as the "responsiveness" factor, will determine how long they hold onto it, based on whether they are people or task focused in that area. Get Things Going (Sanguine) will have a hot temper, but will blow over it quicker. In Charge (Choleric) already has a tighter criteria for responding to others so may hold a conflict against others for longer.
    The introverted counterparts to these will simply be slower to react, however, the responsiveness effect will be the same.

    So an INFJ, for instance, will be reserved in both areas (social, conative), and task focused socially, yet people focused conatively. They will be slow to conflict, but if you really step on their toes too much in the area of direct interaction, they can be nasty, and won't care. (Hence, the infamous "door slam"). They don't need you in particular, on a social level; they only need a few they already care about (to wit, @Lexicon's statement, end of first quoting response, post 26).
    ENFP will have a hot temper, but otherwise, people-focused in both areas, as well as reserved in the conative area. so they may look quick in conflict (I see one who says they thrive on it), but really don't hold onto it.

    I on the other hand (and likely Greenfairy) are Supine ("Behind the Scenes") in the social area (which makes us seem like Feelers, a bit), so I'm also conflict avoidant on a direct social interaction level, but love a good debate, especially if it's something I'm already annoyed about (like politics). Then, with the "pragmatism" of the conative temperament, I can even become aggressive, and the structure focus makes me not want to yield to anything that doesn't fit an abstract structure (idea, etc) of my own choosing.

    So NTP and NFJ will a have a similar mix of conflict avoidance (as well as any E/I in different type groups).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  4. #44
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Thanks @Eric B! Good information. Also I think it's useful to contrast NF with NT.

  5. #45
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    So an INFJ, for instance, will be reserved in both areas (social, conative), and task focused socially, yet people focused conatively. They will be slow to conflict, but if you really step on their toes too much in the area of direct interaction, they can be nasty, and won't care. (Hence, the infamous "door slam"). They don't need you in particular, on a social level; they only need a few they already care about (to wit, @Lexicon's statement, end of first quoting response, post 26).
    I should clarify that I don't go out of my way to cause anyone emotional distress. I have no reason to be "nasty" toward anyone- it doesn't solve anything. If someone is upset with me for whatever reason, I do what I can to neutralize the situation. I do care on some basic human level if another person (who I might not even know) feels slighted by me in some way. However, when/if it becomes clear communication is not possible or has broken down, I back off and don't dwell on it, as I see doing so to be an exercise in futility. On the whole, I may be less apt to be more patient/give more time for strangers, but I will at least put some effort into making things right.

    I've done the doorslam thing about twice in my life (once from a delusional stalker, the other on a former friend who became emotionally abusive/obsessive)- it pained me initially to resort to that, but it was to protect myself. Overall, I'm ok with that. Indifference isn't necessarily the same as malevolence (ie nastiness), but perhaps this is a simple semantic difference here. I have seen/heard of other NF's who are more apt to lash out with their feelings in the moment to intentionally inflict pain on someone after feeling like they're "pushed" to a certain point. I grew up around extremes of that (from a non NF), & can't bring myself to behave that way (I mentioned reacting to physical violence with gratuitous physical violence in my youth as a regrettable experience as well). I'm responsible for my own feelings, even if someone has wronged me; the choices I make based on my internal responses are mine alone. I have a steady self-monitor running in the background, & it keeps that kind of thing in-check. Poisoning other people's lives with my reactions is the last thing I'd want to do.

    /end rambling
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  6. #46
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    so I'm also conflict avoidant on a direct social interaction level, but love a good debate, especially if it's something I'm already annoyed about (like politics). Then, with the "pragmatism" of the conative temperament, I can even become aggressive, and the structure focus makes me not want to yield to anything that doesn't fit an abstract structure (idea, etc) of my own choosing.
    I relate to this actually. That's kind of what I was getting at - avoiding interpersonal drama stuff, but being called argumentative in a discussion I see as intellectual, not personal. When sometimes becomes personal, that's when I get sensitive & back-off.

    I have the hot temper thing sometimes though, often in response to some Fi violation or sort of being prickly to maintain boundaries when people get too close to crossing them (I call it "fair warning"), but that may be as related to my family background (sort of stereotypically feisty Latin women) or perhaps being e4.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #47
    violaine
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    I don't seek it out. But if someone messes with me, and it's clear that they are, I will absolutely level that person. Exceptions for those who are mentally unwell. I will never let someone walk on me or mine.

  8. #48
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    I should clarify that I don't go out of my way to cause anyone emotional distress. I have no reason to be "nasty" toward anyone- it doesn't solve anything. If someone is upset with me for whatever reason, I do what I can to neutralize the situation. I do care on some basic human level if another person (who I might not even know) feels slighted by me in some way. However, when/if it becomes clear communication is not possible or has broken down, I back off and don't dwell on it, as I see doing so to be an exercise in futility. On the whole, I may be less apt to be more patient/give more time for strangers, but I will at least put some effort into making things right.

    I've done the doorslam thing about twice in my life (once from a delusional stalker, the other on a former friend who became emotionally abusive/obsessive)- it pained me initially to resort to that, but it was to protect myself. Overall, I'm ok with that. Indifference isn't necessarily the same as malevolence (ie nastiness), but perhaps this is a simple semantic difference here. I have seen/heard of other NF's who are more apt to lash out with their feelings in the moment to intentionally inflict pain on someone after feeling like they're "pushed" to a certain point. I grew up around extremes of that (from a non NF), & can't bring myself to behave that way (I mentioned reacting to physical violence with gratuitous physical violence in my youth as a regrettable experience as well). I'm responsible for my own feelings, even if someone has wronged me; the choices I make based on my internal responses are mine alone. I have a steady self-monitor running in the background, & it keeps that kind of thing in-check. Poisoning other people's lives with my reactions is the last thing I'd want to do.
    Perhaps "cutting" would be a better term instead of "nasty" (which is how I myself interpret an angry "directive" type). But yes, as both introverted, cooperative, and motive focused, you're not likely going to go out of your way to hurt anyone, and even the door slam is described as painful to the one doing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I relate to this actually. That's kind of what I was getting at - avoiding interpersonal drama stuff, but being called argumentative in a discussion I see as intellectual, not personal. When sometimes becomes personal, that's when I get sensitive & back-off.

    I have the hot temper thing sometimes though, often in response to some Fi violation or sort of being prickly to maintain boundaries when people get too close to crossing them (I call it "fair warning"), but that may be as related to my family background (sort of stereotypically feisty Latin women) or perhaps being e4.
    You were Phlegmatic, so you're actually "in-between" in temperament; evidenced by once thinking you were on the T side. (So it's the flipside of Supine INTP's seeming like F's. Phlegmatic INFP's will seem like T's, and have less of those passive and yielding tendencies.
    Would your "fair warning" include dry/wry sarcastic humor?

    (I didn't know you were Latin. Meaning Hispanic, right?)
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  9. #49
    girl with a pretty smile Honor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by violaine View Post
    I don't seek it out. But if someone messes with me, and it's clear that they are, I will absolutely level that person. Exceptions for those who are mentally unwell. I will never let someone walk on me or mine.
    What type are you, out of curiosity?

  10. #50
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    You were Phlegmatic, so you're actually "in-between" in temperament; evidenced by once thinking you were on the T side. (So it's the flipside of Supine INTP's seeming like F's. Phlegmatic INFP's will seem like T's, and have less of those passive and yielding tendencies.
    Would your "fair warning" include dry/wry sarcastic humor?

    (I didn't know you were Latin. Meaning Hispanic, right?)
    I don't identify with Phlegmatic, no. I test as Melancholy anyway. I'm e4. The passive, yielding INFP is generally e9. I never identified as T, just test that way.

    No, I don't use humor. I get prickly & snappy. I don't raise my voice or say anything mean, just kind of a cool, warning comment. Something like, "Don't push me".

    Mostly Spanish & some Italian (my mom's side, which raised me). I don't call myself "Hispanic" because that usually is Latin American, which I am not.

    My uncle is an INTP e5 & even he is still rather emo (for someone with his other general traits), because it's just a "normal" way of communicating. I suppose there is a lot of hyperbole. Compared to the other women in my family, I am not as emotional or dramatic, but still temperamental. My step-dad is a chilled out ISFP e9 from an island culture & we look "violent" to him. He thinks we're arguing when just excited in a good way.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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