MBTI

[zago]

I read your post\s. Lenore Thompson suggests that when a person, even one with a well developed auxiliary function, fails to apply their secondary function to themselves they fall back on the tertiary as a defence mechanism, especially when they come into contact with problems that their usual way operating cannot deal with, in this case Ti.

Furthermore because of this the inferior becomes steadily more unconscious and out of control. I thought i'd mention this because of your post detailing your aversion to Si.

Yes I recall her saying that. So how do you think an INTP for example falls back on Si? Do you think that they negatively define the present in terms of the things they disliked about the past, even though the past has no real/present ability to hinder them in what they want? That's my best guess. What do you think?

I still hold, though, to what I wrote about generally not preferring to use Si, at least not in a good way. Thanks for the insight, I think it could add to my understanding here.

 

[Cellmold]

Yes I recall her saying that. So how do you think an INTP for example falls back on Si? Do you think that they negatively define the present in terms of the things they disliked about the past, even though the past has no real/present ability to hinder them in what they want? That's my best guess. What do you think?

I still hold, though, to what I wrote about generally not preferring to use Si, at least not in a good way. Thanks for the insight, I think it could add to my understanding here.

I agree actually, that's pretty much how I would reason it for INTP's. There can also be a reluctance to approach any new ideas without first picking them to pieces in extreme INTP's. However I would say that depends on the individual.

 

[zago]

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/185-MBTI-Tertiary-Temptation

This was an excellent site I just found that has help me understand the place of the tertiary function in this process. Overall, it was a radically different way of saying basically the same thing as what I said in those posts at INTPc...

I tend to like my way of putting it a little better, but I can definitely appreciate the hell out of this site. What bothers me about it a little bit is the "you're wrong and you need to adjust the way you see things" way that it sounds.

For instance, if I didn't know any better, I would misinterpret it. If I wanted a better approach to relationships, I would totally misunderstand the site's advice to experiment and get crazy. What does that mean? How fucking crazy should I get? And what insane act should I pick, and why? Should I do a lap around the block naked? Should I interject whatever random thoughts I have into conversations, even though I only half believe them myself? And what is this about trying to hang out with people who don't see things how I see them? How the hell do I do that?

So, that's where I think this site lacks a little. What I have to add is that doing this appropriately feels like giving up. This is what I called avoidance, I believe. From that perspective, this all makes perfect sense to me. The outrageous acts the site refers to come obviously, because you've given up on the outcome of social success. The article hints at this by saying stuff like "I will deal with things as they arise," but it is self-contradictory to actually turn that into a plan... see what I mean?

For example, when I let go, I wound up quitting my job. This is still taking effect, god knows how it will turn out. It is definitely going to shake things up in my life, just like the article says. I feel in alignment with it. That's why I think this is a good site.

I do have some trouble, though, applying this to other types. It would be nice to get some non-INTP perspectives.

 

[zago]

Trying to apply this, I was thinking about what type my most recent gf might be. I could never figure it out, but I had it narrowed down to ESFx. I decided to look at the tertiary defenses on the above website and see if any applied to her. Not even kidding when I say my jaw dropped a little when I read the one for Tertiary Ne:

Tertiary Ne: "Ok, then, I'll bluff. We'll see how he responds to that. I don't know where this is leading, but at least it's leading somewhere new. This takes courage. Most people wouldn't have the courage to reach for the unknown at a time like this, but I can, because I can trust my principles to work in any new situation." The Secondary Function would say: "What are the facts here, really? Set the decision-making criteria aside and look at the facts freely, without without regard to any particular purpose or how the facts appear to others."

Which is crazy because she would ALWAYS bluff her ass off to try to get her way whenever she had a major problem with the way I handled something. I would make some decision that she disagreed with, and she would pretend to draw away from me and not talk to me for a while. She would try to get me to chase, but I almost never did, and within a few days she would be back and have magically come to terms with it all, apologetic. The whole process was actually kind of endearing. I have such a soft spot for this girl

Then again, it is common for many girls to do this, and that's not surprising because a lot of them are ESFJs. The other type tertiary Ne would apply to would be ESTJs, and I'm not exactly as sure about how that would play out. Another bluff could be to make vague threats (other than "I'm leaving you"), but about what? I dunno. I really want to understand this stuff.

 

[Cellmold]

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/185-MBTI-Tertiary-Temptation

That was a nice find with some great examples.

Out of the 8 I found these two the most relatable:

Tertiary Si: "I can't possibly go along with this, I don't have any reliable concepts or map to anchor myself with: it's all arbitrary and untrustworthy and meaningless. I'd be diving in without any orientation; I'd be tripped up or harmed from any random direction, and my efforts wouldn't be cumulative. I just won't budge. I'll build myself some barricades and wait for the storm to blow over." The Secondary Function would say: "Look around, shake up the pot, see what new arises, and deal with it imaginatively; there must be better alternatives available than being stuck here."

Tertiary Fi: "I can't possibly go along with this, because it would mar my soul. It's not 'me'. I am a good person, and in order to maintain my integrity, I need to steer clear of this. This is the responsibility of those other people: it emerges from their souls, not mine, so it's their problem." The Secondary Function would say: "Do something. Take responsibility even if no one gave it to you, and go after some tangible gain right now, within the limits of the situation and your current understanding. That will improve your position, after which you can re-assess and plot a new course."

The description of tertiary Si is in fact directly evidenced in my life by my refusal to go along with certain jobs because they were just empty paths leading nowhere for me, at least when first examined.

Once I took a step back and assessed the situation, I realised there were far more options than I had previously understood.

The Fi one I find is on common ground with how I resist something for personal reasons I cannot quite justify in a rational sense, but nevertheless I experience it as a sense of 'this is not built for me and if I engage in this choice I shall suffer'.

 

[zago]

I was watching an episode of Kenny vs. Spenny last night, don't know if you're familiar, and realized Spenny is an INTJ who often falls back on tertiary Fi to avoid moving on in life.

If you aren't familiar, Kenny and Spenny always have these competitions against each other, but Kenny is almost always dishonest and cheats. Even if he doesn't cheat, he torments Spenny to such an extent that Spenny loses composure and can't function.

Spenny tends to become depressed and sour, hating Kenny, blaming everything on him, and resenting the fact that his life consists of doing this show. I think that to use his secondary function of Te, he would have to quit the show and do something else with his life, but I think he is scared of the uncertainty and questions the wisdom of leaving a spot on television that probably makes him fairly wealthy. Another possibility for secondary Te would actually be to hold Kenny responsible for his cheating and refuse to go on with a competition once the rules had been broken. Spenny always tries to define the rules at the beginning, and Kenny immediately bends them with the intent of making Spenny half-certain they were broken, but doubting himself.

You often see Spenny taking the moral stance, and acting like a martyr as Kenny torments him. People who watch the show are forced to wonder, "why does he take it all so seriously? Why doesn't he cheat like Kenny? Why doesn't he play dirty too?" This is where the tertiary temptation of Fi fits pretty well. Spenny claims that to do the things Kenny does would "mar his soul" and degrade who he is. He then rants about how awful Kenny is and the vague consequences Kenny will face for being who he is. And you know what? He might be somewhat right. Tertiary defense always does at least hold a half-truth. Just like with me in the public school system - YES, the system is stupid, but I was also the one who chose to participate and fail within such a stupid system for all those years.

 

[Fluffywolf]

If you can see MBTI for what it is, nothing more and nothing less, it can be used to make yourself aware of yourself in a way that allows you to build and expand on.

But reading about MBTI and understanding MBTI are two entirely different things.

 

[Such Irony]

How has MBTI helped you?

Understand the differences between myself and others. Communicate and get along better with others.

What were you're reactions when you found out your type?

I read the type profile for INTP and was taken aback by how true it was. I literally had goosebumps the first time I read it. It was like someone could read my mind.

Is it consistent in your perspective?

Do mean my type profile is consistent with my own self understanding? If so, then for the most part, yes. Most of the stuff in the profile fits me very well. There are a few things that don't quite fit and there's also stuff about my myself that go beyond MBTI type.

What dichotomy has created the greatest divide?

Probably S/N or E/I. Those are my strongest two dichotomies so it's harder for me to relate to the opposite than it for the other two.

How did you find mbti?

I first learned about in high school psychology. I arrived at my type through a combination of reading type profiles and feedback from others. The tests were less helpful and often inaccurate. I still enjoy taking them though.

 

[Mole]

MBTI and the Placebo Effect

Look, if we measure introversion and extroversion, we find they fall on a Bell Curve. That means almost all of us are in the middle and only a tiny, tiny number are at either end.

So the number of introverts and extroverts is insignificant. Almost all of us contain part introvert and part extrovert.

So a system for measuring introversion and extroversion and other qualities is completely useless.

But what is amazing is the placebo effect of believing mbti does us good.

 

[Mal12345]

Look, if we measure introversion and extroversion, we find they fall on a Bell Curve. That means almost all of us are in the middle and only a tiny, tiny number are at either end.

So the number of introverts and extroverts is insignificant. Almost all of us contain part introvert and part extrovert.

So a system for measuring introversion and extroversion and other qualities is completely useless.

But what is amazing is the placebo effect of believing mbti does us good.

The MBTI may actually do nothing. Or it may actually encourage more harm than good.

 

[Oblivious]

Look, if we measure introversion and extroversion, we find they fall on a Bell Curve. That means almost all of us are in the middle and only a tiny, tiny number are at either end.

So the number of introverts and extroverts is insignificant. Almost all of us contain part introvert and part extrovert.

So a system for measuring introversion and extroversion and other qualities is completely useless.

But what is amazing is the placebo effect of believing mbti does us good.

If you are speaking in terms of socialization then you are correct a lot of people aren't on either side of the spectrum and I am no fan of sticking to defintions ( because a definition is too flexible you see it from 20 different angles and we never seem too be satisified from one side or the other) but MBTI defines I and E in terms in of how we percieve the world for example Fi-Se or Se-Fi, Fi is an internal function which is the difference between I or E.

 

[Oblivious]

Because you were attempting to show me the validity of MBTI, yet you yourself have not given yourself a type on the forum. To me to this is more evidence towards my view of the theory, that it is too disorganised and unproven at the moment for it to be reliable.

I'm sure there are lots of things wrong with my reasoning, but hey you wanted to know.

I wasn't trying to defend MBTI I was only explaining my perceptions of MBTI and how people have changed it(to some degree) by assembing it and then disassembling it all over again until it becomes something else entirely. And according to the descriptions ( I've never really trusted the tests now those are inconsistent because the've been set up in terms of how much we value a certain area not whether we depend on them regularly,which is sad because then people run around thinking they are a certain type and then become thouroughly convinced they are that type and there is no changing their mindset) so I am prettycertain I am an ENFP.

 

[Scheherezade]

i agree with Victor, also it s fun to see how people are trying to be INTP or .. some other "cool" type and obsessing about MBTI more than they should
you shouldn t take it too serious in my opinion

*also, click the multi-quote button of the posts you want to quote and then click reply

 

[Mal12345]

If you are speaking in terms of socialization then you are correct a lot of people aren't on either side of the spectrum and I am no fan of sticking to defintions ( because a definition is too flexible you see it from 20 different angles and we never seem too be satisified from one side or the other) but MBTI defines I and E in terms in of how we percieve the world for example Fi-Se or Se-Fi, Fi is an internal function which is the difference between I or E.

You're confusing the MBTI with JCF, but even then, neither of those systems define I/E in terms of how we perceive the world. For the MBTI, I/E is defined in terms of behavior; for JCF, I/E is defined in terms of attitude.

 

[Fluffywolf]

also it s fun to see how people are trying to be INTP or .. some other "cool" type and obsessing about MBTI more than they should
you shouldn t take it too serious in my opinion

If only they knew.

 

[Mole]

MBTI defines I and E in terms in of how we percieve the world.

The simple fact is that we can choose how we see the world.

Mbti reifies us - turns us into things - so that we can be manipulated and controlled with a clear conscience.

For we feel guilty when we manipulate a person, but feel no guilt when we manipulate a thing.

 

[Cellmold]

The simple fact is that we can choose how we see the world.

Mbti reifies us - turns us into things - so that we can be manipulated and controlled with a clear conscience.

For we feel guilty when we manipulate a person, but feel no guilt when we manipulate a thing.

That's an interesting thought, have you got some examples? I can certainly see a person using a type profile against another as a way to hedge them in conceptually. But then again this is no different to the other labels people give each other all the time.

I would say this stems from an attempt by the left brain to try and control the specifics and variables so as to feel more comfortable and make the world more predictable.

So my point would be that it is more important to try and understand why human beings do this in the first place, this organisation and grouping of individuals so as to pigeon hole them. Rather than simply throw the baby out with the bathwater and automatically blame the object used, let us blame the mindset behind it.