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  1. #1
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Default Which Function Is Closest To The Unconscious And Why?

    It's been said that Ni is the function closest to the subconscious. It seems right to me. But why though?

    Why not Fi or any other introverted function? Why not any inferior function for a particular person?

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    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    This is part of what I was trying to go into here, recently: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ous-terms.html

    "unconscious" refers to "inferior function or lower" (which are less conscious than the ego's preferred functions), "introversion" (based on a premise that the external world is what's more "conscious"), and "iNtuition" (based on the idea that sensation is more "conscious"). The latter two (which together answer your question) are more ambiguous, in that Sensation is basically associated with the external world.

    But of course, there's introverted Senation, extraverted iNtuition, dominant iNtuition/inferior Sensation, and dominant introversion/inferior extraversion.

    Like "objective/subjective", which I used to discuss years ago, they probably lead to degrees of consciousness when combined like that.
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    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    It is difficult to say between Ni and Ne. Having hung out with some extreme Ne artists, I learned that their creative process was like an open window into their unconscious. They work like awake while dreaming with absolutely uninhibited, free associations of ideas. It is harder to gauge from others the process of Ni because it is internal. My creative process does also feel like I'm dreaming, but the awake part is less striking - it's more like being in a personal, meditative state that freely unleashes ideas without judgment or questioning, but it tends to come out more structured than what I have seen with Ne.
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  4. #4
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Funny, I thought it was always Fi that was considered the most unconscious. One things for sure Ni and Fi are the two hardest functions to describe, and to me that reflects the level of unconsciousness in their usage.

    I imagine Jung would say that all introverted functions relate to the Unconscious because they distance themselves from the Object. I suppose it's just that some functions distance themselves more than others. Sensing and Thinking functions are more connected with the Object because they are bound by the constraints of 'reality' and 'logic', respectively.

    I vaguely remember seeing a chart that was meant to demonstrate the levels of consciousness (or the levels of dependency on external information - something like that) in the use of the functions. It went something like this (I may have a couple around the wrong way, but you get the idea):

    Se>Si>Te>Ti>Fe>Ne>Ni>Fi

    I may just be going crazy, so I'm hoping someone else saw it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    It is difficult to say between Ni and Ne. Having hung out with some extreme Ne artists, I learned that their creative process was like an open window into their unconscious. They work like awake while dreaming with absolutely uninhibited, free associations of ideas. It is harder to gauge from others the process of Ni because it is internal. My creative process does also feel like I'm dreaming, but the awake part is less striking - it's more like being in a personal, meditative state that freely unleashes ideas without judgment or questioning, but it tends to come out more structured than what I have seen with Ne.
    I remember reading an interview with a Ni dom/aux musician and he said that for him writing lyrics or music was like trying to remember something he doesn't know yet. I thought that was a fascinating and revealing comment about Ni and I like that it makes that connection to Si - it shows how Pi is about accessing something underlying.

    I do think agree are different sorts of access to the Unconscious and perhaps even different forms of it. Ne free association has a sort of organised chaos about it that people tend to relate to the Unconscious, but is that just how we imagine it works or does it function more like a steady, unfolding truth like Ni?
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    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    My first reaction was 'Ni' when I saw the thread title. But after reading Fias post and pondering it a bit...I realized that to me, it is 'Ne'.

    My reason for it being...most internal functions have a specific feel to them, that is oriented towards something. Ni forms a vision of the future that it can then act upon or not. Fi analyzes and distills raw data to fit them into a logical system, as does Ti. Si catalogues and categories its findings in its archives for future reference. All of them *feel* rather concrete in their purpose to me.

    Whereas Ne...Ne acts like a beach ball in the wind. It takes what comes its way - in the abstract field - and spins off on that. We access our subconscious often through association, brainstorming etc, which is Ne's expertise. And granted, dreams and symbols are also part of the language of the subconscious so Ni is definitely a part of it, but the free form that Ne has compared to the tight nit succinctness of Ni makes it somehow seem more in touch with it, i feel. The creativity locked within the subconscious gets free reign without judgement. It's the first moment of creating something new, when things are still in flow. I feel that Ni comes in later, after the brainstorming process to play editor and translate the lot into reality.
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    i actually think extroverted functions are to some degree less conscious - they are being processed faster than the rate at which we experience them, so it's a bit like watching a movie on fast forward, and our consciousness is losing a lot of elements due to that.
    i believe much of the extroverted behavior actually stems from the resulting need to catch up to your own thoughts - it leaves you with incomplete strands of thoughts, so we need to bounce them off of others to complete them, much like DNA strands using reproduction to correct for mutations.

    the reason sensory functions (and Se in particular) appear more conscious isn't that they are processed more consciously, but because it is easier for the brain to validate them by the external surrounding and bring them up to the surface as a result.

    FYI -

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i actually think extroverted functions are to some degree less conscious - they are being processed faster than the rate at which we experience them, so it's a bit like watching a movie on fast forward, and our consciousness is losing a lot of elements due to that.
    i believe much of the extroverted behavior actually stems from the resulting need to catch up to your own thoughts - it leaves you with incomplete strands of thoughts, so we need to bounce them off of others to complete them, much like DNA strands using reproduction to correct for mutations.

    the reason sensory functions (and Se in particular) appear more conscious isn't that they are processed more consciously, but because it is easier for the brain to validate them by the external surrounding and bring them up to the surface as a result.

    FYI -
    I was wondering the same thing too. I believe they are using the shorthand for "unconscious mind" which if I am not mistaken is synomyous with subconscious and not the standard definition of unconscious.

    I believe that whether a function is subconscious or not depends on its position in your stack. Any inferior function would fit this description as they serve as the unseen hand which guides you and as they are unseen they are difficult to consciously perceive and thus control. I perceive functions like skyscrapers; your dominant ones have become so tall that their higher levels are above the clouds - they can be seen and easily understood but they have their roots down below. Your inferior ones still influence the skyline but a person flying above a thick cloud cover would have trouble making them out.

  8. #8
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    intuition is perception via the unconscious, so intuition for sure. extraverted intuition is sort of the unconscious reaction to whats going on outside, but introverted intuition starts from the inside.

    -> Ni is the closest to the unconscious
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    intuition is perception via the unconscious, so intuition for sure. extraverted intuition is sort of the unconscious reaction to whats going on outside, but introverted intuition starts from the inside.

    -> Ni is the closest to the unconscious
    Agreed.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Funny, I thought it was always Fi that was considered the most unconscious. One things for sure Ni and Fi are the two hardest functions to describe, and to me that reflects the level of unconsciousness in their usage.

    i don't understand why Fi is always considered this unattainable guru. i'm going to maintain my respectable distance here, since you are the Fi-dom not me, but i've always been in touch with my Fi and i thought everyone else had it to. isn't the world based on a system of morals etc? i don't personally understand what's so elusive about Fi.
    that said, i still can't understand what Ni is about, although i've read so many descriptions of it. maybe it's because i can't understand something i lack. anyway, i'd pick that as the most voodoo-y function (if that is how we are defining "unconscious" here)

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