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  1. #51
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Read the rest of the post for more context.

    Jung said these aspects are not the functions. Memory is not Si. Imagination is not Ni. The more differentiated a function, the less mixed in these things are.
    That doesn't sound right.

    Of course these things are perceived & judged, but I'm saying a Ji type focuses on assigning them meaning (hence why Jung says the Ji types relate things to the self to give it meaning, and have a hard time understanding that Pi types don't), which is judging; and for a Fi type, these amount to value-concepts. Where do people think Fi values come from anyway? Is our thinking just a list of stuff we randomly like or don't like? Come on.... Fi isn't static values. It's forming value-concepts & using the inner world as a gauge. It's not what is good or bad, but defining what goodness & badness are in their essence, what they feel like, etc. This is more exploratory than dry categorizing. Most descriptions of Fi note it does not look or feel like the most people's idea of "judging".
    You keep on saying inner world. And for no particular reason that I can see, you disallow that inner world to be made of Si. Whether Jung said memory wasn't Si or not is irrelevant to what aspects of the whole of the inner world are available to cognition. Just because you're not aware of it being Si.....
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  2. #52
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    An introverted function doesn't necessarily mean it's an unconscious function. That's the attitude of the function. The further down the function stacking you get, the closer to the human unconscious. If I recall, the aux function can be semi-unconscious, where the full unconscious begins with the tertiary function and downwards. As people age and develop their functions, they bring them out of the unconscious, into the conscious mind.

  3. #53
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    CG Jung, Welcome to the Jungle, track 62:

    Intuition maintains a compensatory function to sensation, and, like sensation, it is the maternal soil from which thinking and feeling are developed in the form of rational functions.

    There're probably other possibly even substantive quotes, but it seems again and again, it's a grave mistake to imagine type to be built over modular components. Imma go all out and claim that though cognition becomes more function-like the more it is conscious, far from this meaning this makes it freer of the unconscious, it means the contribution of unconscious elements is in fact greater. It's kinda axiomatic, really. The more you focus on controlling or developing one kind of determination or observation, the freer the other kinds are to present wherever they may--and more particularly to present as the form you think you're focusing on.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  4. #54
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    "Supposing, for instance, a man is overtaken by a psychogenic attack of giddiness. Sensation is arrested by the peculiar character of this innervation-disturbance, perceiving all its qualities, its intensity, its transient course, the nature of its origin and disappearance in their every detail, without raising the smallest inquiry concerning the nature of the thing which produced the disturbance, or advancing anything as to its content. Intuition [Ni], on the other hand, receives from the sensation only the impetus to immediate activity; it peers behind the scenes, quickly perceiving the inner image that gave rise to the specific phenomenon, i.e. the attack of vertigo, in the present case. It [Ni] sees the image of a tottering man pierced through the heart by an arrow." [Psychological Types, 505-6.]

    Ayn Rand, who was an INTJ, would envision such scenarios. She didn't describe how they made her feel (the innervation influence arising unbidden from the unconscious), but only the visions they produced. She could literally "see" the future collapse of Western civilization upon reading about or hearing some particularly disturbing news story, for example. Or she could "hear" African drum-beats rising up in the distance, which to her represented the return of primitivism.

    "In this way introverted intuition perceives all the background processes of consciousness with almost the same distinctness as extraverted sensation senses outer objects. For intuition, therefore, the unconscious images attain to the dignity of things or objects."

    So for Ayn Rand, the future collapse of Western civilization, and the concurrent rise of primitivism, were images as real to her as the sensation of objects in the present moment.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #55
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Ayn Rand killed the thread.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #56
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Usually, that's what Ayn Rand does best, lol.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  7. #57
    Retired Nicki's Avatar
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    Definitely the introverted perception functions (Si and Ni)
    I really like cats and food.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleda View Post
    Definitely the introverted perception functions (Si and Ni)
    Yes, and in interestingly different ways. Ni does not experience these intuitions as coming from the self, they are treated as if they are external realities. This gives the Ni type motivation to act upon these "realities." For example, if I were an Ni-dominant, and I saw a loved one die in a vision, and I also mistook the vision as real (although real in the future as a prophecy), I would do everything in my power to prevent it from happening.

    This suddenly reminds me of Neo in the second Matrix movie, in which he dreams about Trinity dying, as a perfect example of an INTJ visionary. Neo visited the Oracle for advice on how to prevent this future from happening.

    Si, on the other hand, mythologizes external reality, unconsciously converting objects into symbols or ideas such as devils and angels (demonizing and deifying things and people). Objects are not fully real to the Si-dom until they have been subjected to the unconscious influence of archaic imagery.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #59
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    This suddenly reminds me of Neo in the second Matrix movie, in which he dreams about Trinity dying, as a perfect example of an INTJ visionary. Neo visited the Oracle for advice on how to prevent this future from happening.
    Dude, Neo is a ISFP - it might be Ni but it's the tertiary form.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #60
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    The further down the function stacking you get, the closer to the human unconscious. If I recall, the aux function can be semi-unconscious, where the full unconscious begins with the tertiary function and downwards.
    Yeah, this is all that comes up for me when I think "unconscious" or "subconscious" as well. So I had a hard time understanding what @highlander is asking in the op. [highlander- by "closest to", are you asking opinions about if it seems like one function has more access/insight into the unconscious? ]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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