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  1. #11
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Both Si and Ni partake of the unconscious, Si perhaps more-so, but how does one measure this? Si dips into the wellspring of collective mankind's unconscious symbolism and archetypes. This is contrasted with the "personal unconscious" which is based in experience and is often mistakenly considered to be Si's main characteristic.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    "Subjective perception...however, does not coincide with the contents of consciousness. It is concerned with presuppositions, or dispositions of the collective unconscious, with mythological images, with primal possibilities of ideas."

    Psychological Types, p 499. ["Subjective perception" is one of Jung's ways of phrasing "Introverted Sensation."]
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #13
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    "Introverted intuition apprehends [takes up into consciousness - Mal] the images which arise from the a priori, i.e. the inherited foundations of the unconscious mind. These archetypes, whose innermost nature is inaccessible to experience, represent the precipitate of psychic functioning of the whole ancestral line, i.e. the heaped-up, or pooled, experiences of organic existence in general, a million times repeated, and condensed into types. Hence, in these archetypes all experiences are represented which since primeval time have happened on this planet. Their archetypal distinctness is the more marked, the more frequently and intensely they have been experienced. The archetype would be to borrow from Kant the noumenon of the image which intuition perceives and, in perceiving, creates."

    Psychological Types, pp 507-8

    Comparing the two quotes, which function is more in touch with (closest to) the unconscious?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    i don't understand why Fi is always considered this unattainable guru. i'm going to maintain my respectable distance here, since you are the Fi-dom not me, but i've always been in touch with my Fi and i thought everyone else had it to. isn't the world based on a system of morals etc? i don't personally understand what's so elusive about Fi.
    that said, i still can't understand what Ni is about, although i've read so many descriptions of it. maybe it's because i can't understand something i lack. anyway, i'd pick that as the most voodoo-y function (if that is how we are defining "unconscious" here)
    Fi is a system which determines what it is you value in life, it isn't a "moral system" per se. So when you're flying around by the seat of your pants due to Ne Fi would be the voice which speaks to you and asks: "How many of these possibilities do you truly want to follow, how many of them do you truly value? How much of the benefits of following them will be benefits which you truly desire from life? Do they allow you to be the person you are?" and similar such questions. After cutting away any neuroticism, any emotion and all the other crap which constitutes the conscious mind the Fi is merely a sage/mentor like voice not only having you ask these sorts of questions but also provides the answers.

    This is perhaps why Fi is perceived to be subconscious. What it tells you is seemingly removed from what is going on in your life. All that touches your day to day life, Fi will often just declare it all BS as if Fi were completely unaffected or uninfluenced by it - and that it was from a part of you deep down beyond the reach of the material world's reach. Fi for the most part is reshaped usually very gradually at best (or if at all) inside a person. A lifetime of experiencing it causes one to wonder whether it is the voice of the "true self" or what makes you "you" (beyond what you consciously perceive about yourself) and dare I say what one could consider the "soul" and Fi's apparent resistance to influence causes it to become implicitly trusted without question about what you really think and feel about said matter (even if you did choose to doubt it you don't really have much choice in the matter but to follow as Fi raises objection as if it were a dictator when you deviate from its commands.)

    The big question for Fi users is whether their Fi reflects the desires of the self. If you're like me then you find yourself believing all it tells you without questioning whether it is what you truly want. After all, how can you measure it? But that's a different topic.

  5. #15
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I believe both Fi & Ni are described as "closest" to the collective unconscious. Both have a focus on the "images" from it. But I think Ni is described as closest to the subconscious, and Ne has a strong connection to it as well.

    A big distinction Jung makes in how these types experience the "images" from the unconscious is that one is rational & the other not (perceiving, for those of you offended by irrational). Ji types, being rational, relate their inner images to themselves - in other words, the self is a guage for making sense, for ordering experience, and being introverted, that's the inner experience. This is why Ti types must repress Fe - they seek to make themselves a gauge for what is impersonally logical, and that means ordering their inner self in a way that cuts out personal feeling.

    The Pi type, however, does not relate the inner image to the self because the self is not a gauge for ordering experience - they use external measures with Je. This is why there's the stereotype of the Si type enjoying facts & information just for the hell of it. It needs no purpose or meaning, in itself it fascinates them because they like to build an inner sense of reality.

    Jung describes the Ni type as pursuing the inner images the way a Se type pursues tangible experience or the fickle way a Ne type pursues possibilities in the outer world. What they pursue is different perspectives mentally, which requires an access to what most people repress consciously. Instead of the firm grasp of sure reality an introverted sensing type seeks, they pursue these images from their subconscious, and maybe you could call these different perspectives or fantasies (IDK, I'm not a Ni type). Jung says meaning is not given unless they develop some judging.

    I personally interpret this to mean something like: the Fi type interprets whatever arises from their unconscious in whatever form (be it imagination, emotion, psychological instincts, etc), as something which indicates MEANING for them. They interpret it as a value-concept in symbolic form. Their reaction to these images is what informs them of what value means. An inner experience can be "good" then, and their gauge for value is refined & deepened. The focus is on this value-concept formation then, not on ordering the outer world in terms of value (which is why IFPs can actually seem indecisive at times). This requires a close inspection of all aspects of the self to know what the "human condition" is, so instead of the mind repressing highly personal or idiosyncratic or just not rational things like a Ti type might, the Fi type must have a close access to it.

    Jung says the Ni type doesn't connect their inner images to personal meaning. They don't relate it themselves. The sheer pursuit of it internally is what interests them. He says this is hard for a Ji type to imagine (and it is). Of course, this detachment of it from themselves allows different perspectives to be explored because you are not attaching your identity to it the way a Fi type would. The self does not need the kind of consistency a Ji-dom ego requires.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  6. #16
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Fi isn't AS close to the unconscious as Si and Ni. It makes it presence known to the Fi type indirectly, through psychological symptoms.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #17
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i actually think extroverted functions are to some degree less conscious - they are being processed faster than the rate at which we experience them, so it's a bit like watching a movie on fast forward, and our consciousness is losing a lot of elements due to that.
    i believe much of the extroverted behavior actually stems from the resulting need to catch up to your own thoughts - it leaves you with incomplete strands of thoughts, so we need to bounce them off of others to complete them, much like DNA strands using reproduction to correct for mutations.

    the reason sensory functions (and Se in particular) appear more conscious isn't that they are processed more consciously, but because it is easier for the brain to validate them by the external surrounding and bring them up to the surface as a result.
    Yes, I was thinking this in part too. Pe in particular often reacts on pure instinct and without conscious thought. Introverted functions are by nature more consciously processed - and you could say that creates a distance to the Unconscious.

    What it comes down to is what we're actually describing here. I really think we need a definition. Are we talking about exhibiting the qualities of the Unconscious or being able to intimately connect to the Unconscious through thought? If the latter, is a stronger connection defined by the level of direct 'consciousness' and awareness of the Unconscious, or is it defined by the ability indirectly channel it's outputs? Must it be a Perceiving function or can Judging functions access it too?

    FYI -
    Yes, I was also feeling iffy about this too. The thing is this usage of the term is actually an approximation for us as well, due to translation; what Freud called das Unbewusste (which I understand translates to "the unknown"). The word can be used to mean a lot of things and can be applied in a number of ways in English. Some people use Unconscious and Subconscious interchangeably too. Basically, many of us may be just as confused (I confess I am, somewhat). I suspect the German language might have a better grip on it than English.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    i don't understand why Fi is always considered this unattainable guru. i'm going to maintain my respectable distance here, since you are the Fi-dom not me, but i've always been in touch with my Fi and i thought everyone else had it to. isn't the world based on a system of morals etc? i don't personally understand what's so elusive about Fi.
    that said, i still can't understand what Ni is about, although i've read so many descriptions of it. maybe it's because i can't understand something i lack. anyway, i'd pick that as the most voodoo-y function (if that is how we are defining "unconscious" here)
    Well, to us Ni is going to be mysterious, just as Fi will be to FJs and TPs, I guess. It is odd that you perceive it as self-evident truth that it is a rational system (although as @Standuble says, it's more than merely "a moral system") because most people don't. You are correct of course.

    But there is something very strange about Fi, and I say this as a dominant user. I can just know something's a certain way without having any rational reason to believe it to be so. I can just know, understand and feel things beyond my own experience in the most bizarre way. I know exactly how it would feel to be in love, despite never having been anywhere near feeling it in life - I know it because I can literally create and experience the feeling itself in my head (and body). I can't really justify or explain this in any objective manner, but I feel like I'm connected with the very depths of my mind, to a place that's universal among all human beings. It's like being able to delve deep into the 'muscles' of the mind (that are fundamental to all human beings); to be able to see and understand how each sinew contracts and expands; and even to be able to manipulate them to some degree to create certain feelings/impressions/reactions within myself. I'm sure that probably sounds like BS to everyone else but I assure you it's very real to me.

    And I don't know if that makes it closest to the Unconscious or not. It being a Judging function might complicate things a bit.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #18
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    But there is something very strange about Fi, and I say this as a dominant user. I can just know something's a certain way without having any rational reason to believe it to be so. I can just know, understand and feel things beyond my own experience in the most bizarre way. I know exactly how it would feel to be in love, despite never having been anywhere near feeling it in life - I know it because I can literally create and experience the feeling itself in my head (and body). I can't really justify or explain this in any objective manner, but I feel like I'm connected with the very depths of my mind, to a place that's universal among all human beings. It's like being able to delve deep into the 'muscles' of the mind (that are funadamental to all human beings); to be able to see and understand how each sinew contracts and expands; and even to be able to manipulate them to some degree to create certain feelings/impressions/reactions within myself. I'm sure that probably sounds like BS to everyone else but I assure you it's very real to me.

    And I don't know if that makes it closest to the Unconscious or not. It being a Judging function might complicate things a bit.
    Sigh.... I'm not so much exasperated, I just know in advance that what I'm about to say will be completely rejected. And that is: Jung's Fi type describes the INFJ in the MBTI system.

    I know, I know; this goes against all the current memes being tossed hither and thither regarding JCF and MBTI.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #19
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Sigh.... I'm not so much exasperated, I just know in advance that what I'm about to say will be completely rejected. And that is: Jung's Fi type describes the INFJ in the MBTI system.

    I know, I know; this goes against all the current memes being tossed hither and thither regarding JCF and MBTI.
    What did I say that made you say this?

    And what is this theory of yours?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Yes, I was thinking this in part too. Pe in particular often reacts on pure instinct and without conscious thought. Introverted functions are by nature more consciously processed - and you could say that creates a distance to the Unconscious.

    What it comes down to is what we're actually describing here. I really think we need a definition. Are we talking about exhibiting the qualities of the Unconscious or being able to intimately connect to the Unconscious through thought? If the latter, is a stronger connection defined by the level of direct 'consciousness' and awareness of the Unconscious, or is it defined by the ability indirectly channel it's outputs? Must it be a Perceiving function or can Judging functions access it too?
    exactly:
    are we talking about which processes happen less consciously? probably Pe.
    are we talking about which processes are more deeply tied to the state of the subconscious? Pi.
    are we talking about which process have a better grasp of the subconscious? probably feeling functions.

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