Fi users (especially FPs) - what do you like about Fe?

[Ginkgo]

I dont understand this about Fe users. Can't you read facial expressions? If someone tells you they're fine but they have a *strange* look on their face or their body language doesn't match their words, can't you see it?

What reason would one have to place a priority on one expression of emotion over the other? It's a mixed message better off expediently ignored if the person with a strange look on their face is just going to be dishonest. If they haven't come to terms with their own emotions, then there will never be any mutual understanding; if there's no mutual understanding, then someone's going to wind up trying to tip-toe around eggshells.

 

[Glycerine]

You guys think way too much on the Fe/Fi crap. A lot of it becomes pretty pointless after awhile.

 

[Cellmold]

You guys think way too much on the Fe/Fi crap. A lot of it becomes pretty pointless after awhile.

Like most of the theory.

 

[Glycerine]

Of course... haha.

 

[mintleaf]

I would be interested in learning more about the experience of Fe from Fe dominants and auxiliaries, though, because (unsurprisingly) it seems far less discussed by dom/aux than Fi.

wholeheartedly agree. I was actually going to start a thread on this, because I don't know that I've ever heard about Fe from an Fe dom/aux's point of view.

I would think that describing Fe as unreflective "people-pleasing" would be frowned on in this forum? While I know the FJs in my life struggle to balance "needing to be socially correct & personally authentic," I wouldn't say that the majority of their actions are predicated by knee-jerk conformism. I mean, I know many conformist FJs, but it's obviously not as if Fe-users can't be independent thinkers. Especially if they were raised in an environment that encouraged it.

(I'm still not sure whether I'm an INFP or INFJ, but if there's any truth to this thread's general response, I'm going back to INFP )

 

[pinkgraffiti]

Excuse me so you're telling me that you see it, but you choose to ignore the suffering of the person in front of you. See, I had this exact doubt about Fe users: ie. 1) do Fe users not see it because they're emotionally dumb or 2) do they choose to ignore it because they're crude and cynical.

Someone might not tell you that there's something wrong with them for many reasons, for instance:
1) they dont want to waste your time or feel their issue is minimal compared to disturbing you;
2) they may be embarrassed to talk about it, or it may require them some time to open up

If 1, then your mission is to make them feel like they aren't a useless piece of shit. If 2, then your mission is to make them open up slowly, as they probably need it. You're not supposed to magically guess what's wrong with them, only to use your sense of compassion to connect to another human being.

Yes, but how exactly can I help you if you can't tell me what's going on? Being able to tell that something's wrong, and knowing what that is are two different things. Facial expressions don't help with the latter unless you're acutely aware of the context. I think Fi users think I'm supposed to know what that is without them telling me for my help to "mean" anything. Am I off here?

Am I just supposed to try things that might help without knowing whether they will help or just make things worse? That's taxing. So why can't you make the small effort to step back a moment and find some words to express yourself? If I'm going to go to all this effort to make you feel better, you might help me just a little .

 

[Rasofy]

You guys think way too much on the Fe/Fi crap. A lot of it becomes pretty pointless after awhile.

You just want people to conform to your standards! You evil Fe-dom!

 

[Ginkgo]

You guys think way too much on the Fe/Fi crap. A lot of it becomes pretty pointless after awhile.

I'd really like to know why Te vs. Ti threads tend to not stimulate the same level of controversy. There's no reason they shouldn't unless feelings themselves are bound to be emotionally invested in by the forum at large.

 

[Standuble]

Yes, no function is ever alone, but for a strong Fe user to forgo their environmental values and use something as alien to them as Ti..must take a pretty fucked up Fe user.

If anything they are less likely to beat against the status quo, precisely because of that environmental reliance. Of course all functions require external sources to cogitate, but it is how those sources are filtered and understood that is important.

An Fe user might take up arms, but they are less likely to than other types and I find that dangerous, especially when it is needed.

Fi might require the external perceptions of Ne/Se but it always judges those assumptions through a personal filter. Fe on the other hand, whether with Ni or Si, is always relying on a standard already set, since their perception always filters information down to what their judgement most adheres to already.

Note that when I said "Fe user" previously I was referring to any type which had Fe in its primary stacking, including ITPs. Plus an FJ who uses Ti isn't necessarily fucked up but often a more balanced one e.g. an older one. By superimposing a more reliable Ti-model on their Fe network they would stop and wonder what works and what does not and make adjustments accordingly.

A question: Why is an Fe user less likely to pursue change than other types? Other functions have their own vices which could impede someone from doing "the right thing":

Ti/Fi-dom= May think it is wrong but make no tangible or organised effort to right this wrong. Will rely on advising others and hope their small sparks light a fire.
Ni-dom = May think it is wrong but make no effort to change it because in the grand scheme of things it means nothing and/or they predict failure if they try.
Si-dom = May think it is wrong but decide to not do anything because they would rather focus on romanticised impressions of the past rather than try and shape the future.
Ne-dom = May think it is wrong but do not act because they see too many possibilities and wonder if making changes will lead to negative outcomes.
Se-dom = May think it is wrong but care more about the immediately concrete than something which can be perceived as abstract.
Te-dom = May think it is wrong but do nothing because even if immoral the current system logically works.

Change could be needed but you probably can't rely on someone purely on the basis of type. Fe may not see something is ethically wrong on its own but the other functions make up for this disadvantage in their own ways.

 

[Glycerine]

You just want people to conform to your standards! You evil Fe-dom!

Damn right. I am an amoral society-bound drone. Everyone needs to follow my lead or else....

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

1) they dont want to waste your time or feel their issue is minimal compared to disturbing you;

In my experience, they may indeed be happy to spare me the discomfort as a way of caring about me. That would be really sweet, except for the fact that they have a way of holding it against me later. If you're just going to hold it against me, wouldn't it be be better for to both of us to just express yourself?

If I tell them repeatedly, how much I appreciate openness about feelings, and how little I care about being "disturbed", and they repeatedly ignore this, what does that say? Maybe it's part of their comfort zone, but as an INTP, all this stuff is outside of my comfort zone. That doesn't stop me from trying to do something about it.

If I take action on something that isn't even clear to me what it is, how the hell do I know that I'm not going to make things worse? And how will that make me feel when you get angry about me making things worse despite my best efforts, despite the fact that you refused to even talk about it? Can't we just sidestep that entirely by being honest?

If 2, then your mission is to make them open up slowly, as they probably need it. You're not supposed to magically guess what's wrong with them, only to use your sense of compassion to connect to another human being.

And I need them to be open about their feelings, and not constantly give me mixed messages as a form of "protection" I don't need. Why don't my actual needs count for anything? If it's difficult to talk about, then say "I have difficulty talking about this." I don't see what's "crude" or "cynical" about that.

 

[Cellmold]

Change could be needed but you probably can't rely on someone purely on the basis of type.

Right.

 

[Rasofy]

Damn right. I am an amoral society-bound drone. Everyone needs to follow my lead or else....

Now that's the spirit!

 

[Thalassa]

Of course. It's warm, supportive, nurturing, and may be very demonstrative of love and take care of you.

Which is far less overbearing and irritating in the aux position, more like pleasantly warm and etc.

Some people who have it in the dom position may require too much interactive energy, or when unhealthy, be complete emotional dictators.

 

[pinkgraffiti]

I dont want to be a bitch to you, but my post was addressed to Fe users as in Fe-dom or aux; i mean, cases where the feeling function (be it Fe or Fi) is quite important. To be honest I'm not particularly interested in your case as a 4th function Fe user, because in your case Ti is much more important in your preference order, so in discussing a feeling function with you, i get a feeling that you're not really discussing Fe vs Fi, but mostly T vs F, and that doesnt interest me (for now). Sorry.

In my experience, they may indeed be happy to spare me the discomfort as a way of caring about me. That would be really sweet, except for the fact that they have a way of holding it against me later. If you're just going to hold it against me, wouldn't it be be better for to both of us to just express yourself?

If I tell them repeatedly, how much I appreciate openness about feelings, and how little I care about being "disturbed", and they repeatedly ignore this, what does that say? Maybe it's part of their comfort zone, but as an INTP, all this stuff is outside of my comfort zone. That doesn't stop me from trying to do something about it.

If I take action on something that isn't even clear to me what it is, how the hell do I know that I'm not going to make things worse? And how will that make me feel when you get angry about me making things worse despite my best efforts, despite the fact that you refused to even talk about it? Can't we just sidestep that entirely by being honest?


And I need them to be open about their feelings, and not constantly give me mixed messages as a form of "protection" I don't need. Why don't my actual needs count for anything? If it's difficult to talk about, then say "I have difficulty talking about this." I don't see what's "crude" or "cynical" about that.

 

[Thalassa]

Fe just looks like lying and falsehood and it becomes more and more like this in appearance the further away the perceiver is from Fe dominance and the closer the observed is to that same dominance.

Breadth vs depth I suppose. Fe is extensive, it creates generally applied boundries of human social conduct, what for i'm not really sure...there probably is a good reason that this exists I just havn't found or seen evidence for it yet but most likely it has something to do with...organisation? Old tribal mentalities passed along?

Or just making sure that we have characters to hate, both in real life and on dreary day-time drama television shows.

I actually have the most problems with Fe in TPs ...especially ExTPs. I've actually had an ENTP suggest that Fe users say things just to be nice, like he basically said that Fe was manipulative and fake, and maybe to an ExTP, they primarily use it for manipulation (at least while young, I think older ExTPs can even be FJ-like, and very caring, host-like people, I know an 80 year old ESTP and he's got a care-taking streak, despite his younger history of combat and business-owning, and sensational interest in bizarre Ni-inferior conspiracy theories).

But yeah in TPs it can be used in a nasty way, like it's used "incorrectly" or "amorally" if that makes any sense at all.

Probably just like how in FPs Te is often used in an alarmingly brusque or hammer-like way, or in service to their Fi when they're displeased about something.

I actually prefer to wrangle with an Fe dom who is overbearing and simply hide from them, or "yeah yeah yeah" them and run away than deal with a young or immature TP, especially ExTP, who thinks Fe is something used primarily for personal entertainment or inauthentic manipulation.

At least the Fe dom sincerely believes what they are saying. I believe Fe is more sincere in FJs, being the ego function or "good parent" in dom/aux respectively.

There are some priggishly annoying immature IxFJs, though, who are holier-than-thou and who gasp easily, and prefer to be passive-aggressive and try to make the more direct person look like the "bad guy"... but in maturity IxFJs are actually among some of my favorite human beings.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I dont want to be a bitch to you, but my post was addressed to Fe users as in Fe-dom or aux; i mean, cases where the feeling function (be it Fe or Fi) is quite important. To be honest I'm not particularly interested in your case as a 4th function Fe user, because in your case Ti is much more important in your preference order, so in discussing a feeling function with you, i get a feeling that you're not really discussing Fe vs Fi, but mostly T vs F, and that doesnt interest me (for now). Sorry.

Naw, I appreciate it!

Thanks. Sorry about cluttering up this thread. Stupid inferior Fe.

 

[Thalassa]

I find it's Fe that pressures the majority to behave. Even if you don't like the community standards, a Perceiver Fi user as myself likes some basis to work off of.

This is more of a problem IRL, especially with a distraught, stressed, or unhealthy Fe dom, they will resort to just about anything, including public shaming and martyr-like blaming (that is painfully transparent) in order to get you to do what they want.

I actually got sick of it with my ESFJ friend. At first, I regarded her from a distance, not being able to tell if she was ESTJ or ESFJ, but seeing that she was constantly "doing" and that she also seemed to have an unfortunate tendency to act like she owned everything and everyone...however, as I got to know her, she was completely obviously ESFJ, charming me and drawing me in with her warmth, compliments, and nurturing behavior. I was suddenly less put off by her overbearing behavior and more charmed by her nurturing, and we had some really great talks and good laughs.

It was fine, as long as our friendship was casual, and she was able to keep up the Fe "show" of only showing me her best behaved, most hostly, most mom-like self. We were great friends.

Then after a series of unfortunate events, I got to know "the real her" a little too closely, and found myself all too often either the audience or eventually the target, to her histrionic blaming and shaming, and overt attempts to control everyone's behavior and feelings to how SHE wanted it.

So I did what any FP would do, and simply took off. I packed my things and promptly left (we were roommates as well as friends). I haven't spoken to her since, and she's never apologized.

It was no longer feasible to simply avoid her or tell myself "that's just how she is, and I know not to do abc because she'll always do xyz"...it had come to the point where she had decided that I was one of her minions, under her emotional terrorist control.

Um, nope.

Not all ESFJs are like that, but she's pretty much the text book case of an unhealthy one. My ESFJ ex was kind of similar, and he was still young enough that he would actually resort to adolescent high school-esque tactics.

 

[Thalassa]

It's funny that people consider Fe to be lying and falsehood, because, in all honesty, I tend to view Fi as being hypocritical and self-absorbed. I'm sure Fi cares a lot about people, but it seems unwilling to accommodate them, and it usually won't even bother to explain why it won't accommodate hem. Instead they'll move the discussion towards something else, or conclude that it's "pointless" to talk about. Like, you want me to go out of my way to accomodate you, but you can't even explain why I should be doing this? That's probably, like, one of the few things I need.

I suppose it's that I'm supposed to have the passion or inner drive to do whatever it is you want without needing to talk about it. I'm not entirely capable of figuring out what people want even when they won't tell me. That being said, if someone tells me something is "fine" I'm going to take them at their word. It's like, the minimum I need, not to be told things are "fine" when they clearly aren't. (And how is that not dishonest?)

It doesn't seem fair that I should put in so much effort, and then when it comes to what I ask them to do, they act as though I'm imposing some unreasonable hardship. If you want me to respond to your moods, and engage with them, and "support" you, I'm going to need you to at least tell me what the hell is going on in your head at least some of the time. What is so unreasonable, unfair, or oppressive about that?

Granted, some of that is Ti, not Fe.

I accommodate most people IRL by not engaging with them at all. I am so inclined to need alone time that I can't imagine that this isn't accommodating. In fact, if anything, I'm good at sizing certain people up from a distance and just knowing that it's best to take whatever course of action to not be tangled up in whatever they're into.

The active accommodation comes if I actually care about you. Nope, I don't actively go out of my way to pull out your chair or fix you a drink if I don't know you, I'm not especially overtly friendly to most strangers, I am not as good as an Fe type at "keeping everyone else happy."

However, I am good at trying my best to keep one or three people happy, usually a romantic partner, or if I have no partner, close friends and/or roommates.

I do know that I've alarmed Fe types by having emotions or needs or opinions which were "inconvenient" to the occasion, but I don't think real feelings, or even real life, happens according to some kind of false construct of "an occasion."

I've had Fe friends do very caring nice things for me, though, and I truly am touched by the way they go out of their way to nurture others, I loves eet.

And I tend to "accommodate" them by leaving them the hell alone and letting them be themselves. It's the kind of accommodation people don't notice, or may take for granted.

Also note that you're an INTP so using a lot of Fe is probably exhausting for you, even though you're inclined to it, which is probably why it bugs you so much. Ti/Fi tend to clash.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Also note that you're an INTP so using a lot of Fe is probably exhausting for you, even though you're inclined to it, which is probably why it bugs you so much. Ti/Fi tend to clash.

You mean "inclined to it" in the sense that I'm more inclined to it Fi, correct?

And yeah, I'd definitely say it's exhausting for me. It feels like I'm putting in a lot of effort. The situations are pretty much straining and agonizing to go through, especially if I don't get real feedback until it's too late for me to do anything about it.

Inferior functions, they suck!