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  1. #61
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Preference would have been to 'nothing at all'. imo, the OP was just bait - better not to bite.
    I agree. Not because I'm selfish or because I want anything, because it's true that opinions are just that, opinions, and I get that, but I just didn't see the point of it. It's the principle of the thing. There are people who are more sensitive than I am and would give it more weight.

    And, I'm capable of getting that and caring about it.
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  2. #62
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Look, Fe is going to occasionally get in Fi's way and irritate it, much like Fi will irritate Fe in its unique vision thingy

    Personally, I have more of a beef with Ti than Fe, but I admire both and can be quite in awe when they are being used in all their glory.

    But yeah, occasionally they frustrate the shit out of me when they get in my business for what I consider no reason, I won't deny that.

    That is true for all functions though, not just Fe. There is no reason to hate Fe more, imho.
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  3. #63
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Both good points. But something that has always bothered me about how Fe is described is that it is often outlined as a function depending entirely on environment and that without a positive environment it becomes used to bad practice and poor conduct, because that would be the social norm.

    I can't imagine, for example, Fe ever coming up with ideas of rebellion or social change, without those ideas first being implanted in the Fe's environment by external sources. The flimsiness of this is quite frightening when you examine it.
    thread derail:

    I'm confused by what you wrote. Doesn't most, if not all, information come in to the brain from the outside? Is there any time in a human being's life that the brain is completely isolated from the outside environment? Even people doing sensory deprivation experiments, to see what happens with the brain and its thoughts when all outside stimulus is taken away, have had outside stimulus during their lifetime. So, how can we know what kind of ideas will form in a brain with only internal sources to draw from? How could that brain even communicate without some way to reach the external world? Wouldn't a more realistic view be that we all have functions that take in external information and process internal information? So, the order of those functions and the environments we grew up in, will probably affect how much weight we give to external influences over internal ones and vice versa?


    ETA: So, wouldn't that mean that Fe gives more weight to the emotional info coming from external sources and Fi gives more weight to internal emotional info? It doesn't necessarily follow that Fe will only act according to external influences and Fi will only act according to internal influences. We all supposedly have some free will in the matter. Also, how much weight is given in each case will vary according to the situation. And how that function is applied will also be influenced by the other dom or aux function.

    If we take out as much of the personal bias as we can, isn't all anyone can say about me and my Fe is that, when I'm processing emotional information, I will always tend to put more weight (give some preference to) to the external emotional information that I perceive? How that translates into real world acts will depend on many other factors than just Fe.

    /thread derail
    Johari / Nohari

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  4. #64
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Look, Fe is going to occasionally get in Fi's way and irritate it, much like Fi will irritate Fe in its unique vision thingy

    Personally, I have more of a beef with Ti than Fe, but I admire both and can be quite in awe when they are being used in all their glory.

    But yeah, occasionally they frustrate the shit out of me when they get in my business for what I consider no reason, I won't deny that.

    That is true for all functions though, not just Fe. There is no reason to hate Fe more, imho.
    Ha! Isn't that the truth! When all is said and done, it's always the person wielding a function and how they use it that matters. I'd never EVER do so many things said in this thread and hate when they're done to me as well. I don't blame anyone for being bugged by a lot of it as I'm bugged by it too!

    Same with Fi and all the other functions. The exact same ones can have totally different manifestations depending on the people, and when conversing about them, it's nice when it's rounded and open. When good threads are made as well as negative ones, so that that message gets through, I think.
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  5. #65
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Ah, but Fe (like Te, Ne, and Se) isn't "external" in the sense that the user wields no control over it. We focus on and interpret the things that are most important to us - and Fe acts on values and may help develop them, but the functions are brain processes, not content. It is up to each individual to determine the content.

    Take an ENFJ friend of mine from college - he was a lanky, little bit dorky white guy who was at the head of a grasroots student movement to increase racial diversity in the school. Most students really didn't have that issue even on their minds, and it was very unpopular amongst the administration, who would prefer not to draw attention to that, but it was a present external disparity with negative consequences, and he used his incredible charisma and interpersonal skills to increase awareness amongst his peers and affect change.
    I'll believe that when I see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    thread derail:

    I'm confused by what you wrote. Doesn't most, if not all, information come in to the brain from the outside? Is there any time in a human being's life that the brain is completely isolated from the outside environment? Even people doing sensory deprivation experiments, to see what happens with the brain and its thoughts when all outside stimulus is taken away, have had outside stimulus during their lifetime. So, how can we know what kind of ideas will form in a brain with only internal sources to draw from? How could that brain even communicate without some way to reach the external world? Wouldn't a more realistic view be that we all have functions that take in external information and process internal information? So, the order of those functions and the environments we grew up in, will probably affect how much weight we give to external influences over internal ones and vice versa?


    ETA: So, wouldn't that mean that Fe gives more weight to the emotional info coming from external sources and Fi gives more weight to internal emotional info? It doesn't necessarily follow that Fe will only act according to external influences and Fi will only act according to internal influences. We all supposedly have some free will in the matter. Also, how much weight is given in each case will vary according to the situation. And how that function is applied will also be influenced by the other dom or aux function.

    If we take out as much of the personal bias as we can, isn't all anyone can say about me and my Fe is that, when I'm processing emotional information, I will always tend to put more weight (give some preference to) to the external emotional information that I perceive? How that translates into real world acts will depend on many other factors than just Fe.

    /thread derail
    This is not really relevant to what I was getting at. Firstly when I said outside environment I should have perhaps clarified that while all people act on outside information, as determinism dictates, Fe as a function, the way it is described, appears to be a function that thinks little for itself and relies entirely upon the opinions of others.

    How then could such a function, dictated by others so implicitly, ever look genuine? Or for that matter, even BE genuine? Especially the higher up it is the functional hierarchy. Everyone has the capacity for internal and external processing, but it is the how of those processes that is important...not the what.
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  6. #66
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Fe as a function, the way it is described, appears to be a function that thinks little for itself and relies entirely upon the opinions of others.
    That sounds disgusting. Happen to have a link to this definition?
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  7. #67
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    This is not really relevant to what I was getting at. Firstly when I said outside environment I should have perhaps clarified that while all people act on outside information, as determinism dictates, Fe as a function, the way it is described, appears to be a function that thinks little for itself and relies entirely upon the opinions of others.

    How then could such a function, dictated by others so implicitly, ever look genuine? Or for that matter, even BE genuine? Especially the higher up it is the functional hierarchy. Everyone has the capacity for internal and external processing, but it is the how of those processes that is important...not the what.
    I would say that from the little I know, that, yes, Fe, on it's own, in fact any external function on its own, relies entirely on external information (can that directly translate into "opinions of others"? I'm not sure.). My point is that none of the functions operate in isolation. How can a single, isolated function be judged genuine or non-genuine? The function itself has no right or wrong--it just is. It's wired into our brains. What ends up being judgeable are people's actions and behaviors, which never stem from an isolated function.

    ETA: You can't change the way the function works, but you can change the information given to the function, and maybe then change the behavior that results?

    ETA: (Sorry for the edits) Is Se disgusting or non-genuine because it relies on external information? Te? Ne? Perhaps the behaviors expressed by those functions can be, but the function itself isn't. But, again, those behaviors are also formed by the other functions and the environment surrounding the person, so how can we deride any one function or any one user of that function, sight unseen?
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  8. #68
    Glycerine
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    Whoa, people are taking this shit way too seriously. Internet is some serious business. I have read a little of this thread and I bet some of you just have a serious axe to grind. If it weren't for Fe, the blame would be placed elsewhere, I am sure.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I'd really like to know why Te vs. Ti threads tend to not stimulate the same level of controversy. There's no reason they shouldn't unless feelings themselves are bound to be emotionally invested in by the forum at large.
    F is about ethical evaluation in the end, so ultimately discussing F boils down to discussing how people feel in a Jungian sense. T on the other hand, is impersonal. It just becomes logic vs logic.

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  10. #70
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Yeah, seems like people don't like being called either selfishly manipulative or sheeple and controlling by people who have never met them and who are (worse in my opinion) basing that opinion on shaky information and doing it in such a way that it's matter-of-fact and indefensible.

    Who knew?
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