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  1. #31
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    1) they dont want to waste your time or feel their issue is minimal compared to disturbing you;
    In my experience, they may indeed be happy to spare me the discomfort as a way of caring about me. That would be really sweet, except for the fact that they have a way of holding it against me later. If you're just going to hold it against me, wouldn't it be be better for to both of us to just express yourself?

    If I tell them repeatedly, how much I appreciate openness about feelings, and how little I care about being "disturbed", and they repeatedly ignore this, what does that say? Maybe it's part of their comfort zone, but as an INTP, all this stuff is outside of my comfort zone. That doesn't stop me from trying to do something about it.

    If I take action on something that isn't even clear to me what it is, how the hell do I know that I'm not going to make things worse? And how will that make me feel when you get angry about me making things worse despite my best efforts, despite the fact that you refused to even talk about it? Can't we just sidestep that entirely by being honest?

    If 2, then your mission is to make them open up slowly, as they probably need it. You're not supposed to magically guess what's wrong with them, only to use your sense of compassion to connect to another human being.
    And I need them to be open about their feelings, and not constantly give me mixed messages as a form of "protection" I don't need. Why don't my actual needs count for anything? If it's difficult to talk about, then say "I have difficulty talking about this." I don't see what's "crude" or "cynical" about that.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  2. #32
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Change could be needed but you probably can't rely on someone purely on the basis of type.
    Right.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  3. #33
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    Damn right. I am an amoral society-bound drone. Everyone needs to follow my lead or else....
    Now that's the spirit!
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  4. #34
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    Of course. It's warm, supportive, nurturing, and may be very demonstrative of love and take care of you.

    Which is far less overbearing and irritating in the aux position, more like pleasantly warm and etc.

    Some people who have it in the dom position may require too much interactive energy, or when unhealthy, be complete emotional dictators.

  5. #35
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    I dont want to be a bitch to you, but my post was addressed to Fe users as in Fe-dom or aux; i mean, cases where the feeling function (be it Fe or Fi) is quite important. To be honest I'm not particularly interested in your case as a 4th function Fe user, because in your case Ti is much more important in your preference order, so in discussing a feeling function with you, i get a feeling that you're not really discussing Fe vs Fi, but mostly T vs F, and that doesnt interest me (for now). Sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    In my experience, they may indeed be happy to spare me the discomfort as a way of caring about me. That would be really sweet, except for the fact that they have a way of holding it against me later. If you're just going to hold it against me, wouldn't it be be better for to both of us to just express yourself?

    If I tell them repeatedly, how much I appreciate openness about feelings, and how little I care about being "disturbed", and they repeatedly ignore this, what does that say? Maybe it's part of their comfort zone, but as an INTP, all this stuff is outside of my comfort zone. That doesn't stop me from trying to do something about it.

    If I take action on something that isn't even clear to me what it is, how the hell do I know that I'm not going to make things worse? And how will that make me feel when you get angry about me making things worse despite my best efforts, despite the fact that you refused to even talk about it? Can't we just sidestep that entirely by being honest?


    And I need them to be open about their feelings, and not constantly give me mixed messages as a form of "protection" I don't need. Why don't my actual needs count for anything? If it's difficult to talk about, then say "I have difficulty talking about this." I don't see what's "crude" or "cynical" about that.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Fe just looks like lying and falsehood and it becomes more and more like this in appearance the further away the perceiver is from Fe dominance and the closer the observed is to that same dominance.

    Breadth vs depth I suppose. Fe is extensive, it creates generally applied boundries of human social conduct, what for i'm not really sure...there probably is a good reason that this exists I just havn't found or seen evidence for it yet but most likely it has something to do with...organisation? Old tribal mentalities passed along?

    Or just making sure that we have characters to hate, both in real life and on dreary day-time drama television shows.
    I actually have the most problems with Fe in TPs ...especially ExTPs. I've actually had an ENTP suggest that Fe users say things just to be nice, like he basically said that Fe was manipulative and fake, and maybe to an ExTP, they primarily use it for manipulation (at least while young, I think older ExTPs can even be FJ-like, and very caring, host-like people, I know an 80 year old ESTP and he's got a care-taking streak, despite his younger history of combat and business-owning, and sensational interest in bizarre Ni-inferior conspiracy theories).

    But yeah in TPs it can be used in a nasty way, like it's used "incorrectly" or "amorally" if that makes any sense at all.

    Probably just like how in FPs Te is often used in an alarmingly brusque or hammer-like way, or in service to their Fi when they're displeased about something.

    I actually prefer to wrangle with an Fe dom who is overbearing and simply hide from them, or "yeah yeah yeah" them and run away than deal with a young or immature TP, especially ExTP, who thinks Fe is something used primarily for personal entertainment or inauthentic manipulation.

    At least the Fe dom sincerely believes what they are saying. I believe Fe is more sincere in FJs, being the ego function or "good parent" in dom/aux respectively.

    There are some priggishly annoying immature IxFJs, though, who are holier-than-thou and who gasp easily, and prefer to be passive-aggressive and try to make the more direct person look like the "bad guy"... but in maturity IxFJs are actually among some of my favorite human beings.

  7. #37
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    I dont want to be a bitch to you, but my post was addressed to Fe users as in Fe-dom or aux; i mean, cases where the feeling function (be it Fe or Fi) is quite important. To be honest I'm not particularly interested in your case as a 4th function Fe user, because in your case Ti is much more important in your preference order, so in discussing a feeling function with you, i get a feeling that you're not really discussing Fe vs Fi, but mostly T vs F, and that doesnt interest me (for now). Sorry.
    Naw, I appreciate it!

    Thanks. Sorry about cluttering up this thread. Stupid inferior Fe.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I find it's Fe that pressures the majority to behave. Even if you don't like the community standards, a Perceiver Fi user as myself likes some basis to work off of.
    This is more of a problem IRL, especially with a distraught, stressed, or unhealthy Fe dom, they will resort to just about anything, including public shaming and martyr-like blaming (that is painfully transparent) in order to get you to do what they want.

    I actually got sick of it with my ESFJ friend. At first, I regarded her from a distance, not being able to tell if she was ESTJ or ESFJ, but seeing that she was constantly "doing" and that she also seemed to have an unfortunate tendency to act like she owned everything and everyone...however, as I got to know her, she was completely obviously ESFJ, charming me and drawing me in with her warmth, compliments, and nurturing behavior. I was suddenly less put off by her overbearing behavior and more charmed by her nurturing, and we had some really great talks and good laughs.

    It was fine, as long as our friendship was casual, and she was able to keep up the Fe "show" of only showing me her best behaved, most hostly, most mom-like self. We were great friends.

    Then after a series of unfortunate events, I got to know "the real her" a little too closely, and found myself all too often either the audience or eventually the target, to her histrionic blaming and shaming, and overt attempts to control everyone's behavior and feelings to how SHE wanted it.

    So I did what any FP would do, and simply took off. I packed my things and promptly left (we were roommates as well as friends). I haven't spoken to her since, and she's never apologized.

    It was no longer feasible to simply avoid her or tell myself "that's just how she is, and I know not to do abc because she'll always do xyz"...it had come to the point where she had decided that I was one of her minions, under her emotional terrorist control.

    Um, nope.

    Not all ESFJs are like that, but she's pretty much the text book case of an unhealthy one. My ESFJ ex was kind of similar, and he was still young enough that he would actually resort to adolescent high school-esque tactics.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    It's funny that people consider Fe to be lying and falsehood, because, in all honesty, I tend to view Fi as being hypocritical and self-absorbed. I'm sure Fi cares a lot about people, but it seems unwilling to accommodate them, and it usually won't even bother to explain why it won't accommodate hem. Instead they'll move the discussion towards something else, or conclude that it's "pointless" to talk about. Like, you want me to go out of my way to accomodate you, but you can't even explain why I should be doing this? That's probably, like, one of the few things I need.

    I suppose it's that I'm supposed to have the passion or inner drive to do whatever it is you want without needing to talk about it. I'm not entirely capable of figuring out what people want even when they won't tell me. That being said, if someone tells me something is "fine" I'm going to take them at their word. It's like, the minimum I need, not to be told things are "fine" when they clearly aren't. (And how is that not dishonest?)

    It doesn't seem fair that I should put in so much effort, and then when it comes to what I ask them to do, they act as though I'm imposing some unreasonable hardship. If you want me to respond to your moods, and engage with them, and "support" you, I'm going to need you to at least tell me what the hell is going on in your head at least some of the time. What is so unreasonable, unfair, or oppressive about that?

    Granted, some of that is Ti, not Fe.
    I accommodate most people IRL by not engaging with them at all. I am so inclined to need alone time that I can't imagine that this isn't accommodating. In fact, if anything, I'm good at sizing certain people up from a distance and just knowing that it's best to take whatever course of action to not be tangled up in whatever they're into.

    The active accommodation comes if I actually care about you. Nope, I don't actively go out of my way to pull out your chair or fix you a drink if I don't know you, I'm not especially overtly friendly to most strangers, I am not as good as an Fe type at "keeping everyone else happy."

    However, I am good at trying my best to keep one or three people happy, usually a romantic partner, or if I have no partner, close friends and/or roommates.

    I do know that I've alarmed Fe types by having emotions or needs or opinions which were "inconvenient" to the occasion, but I don't think real feelings, or even real life, happens according to some kind of false construct of "an occasion."

    I've had Fe friends do very caring nice things for me, though, and I truly am touched by the way they go out of their way to nurture others, I loves eet.

    And I tend to "accommodate" them by leaving them the hell alone and letting them be themselves. It's the kind of accommodation people don't notice, or may take for granted.

    Also note that you're an INTP so using a lot of Fe is probably exhausting for you, even though you're inclined to it, which is probably why it bugs you so much. Ti/Fi tend to clash.

  10. #40
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Also note that you're an INTP so using a lot of Fe is probably exhausting for you, even though you're inclined to it, which is probably why it bugs you so much. Ti/Fi tend to clash.
    You mean "inclined to it" in the sense that I'm more inclined to it Fi, correct?

    And yeah, I'd definitely say it's exhausting for me. It feels like I'm putting in a lot of effort. The situations are pretty much straining and agonizing to go through, especially if I don't get real feedback until it's too late for me to do anything about it.

    Inferior functions, they suck!
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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