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  1. #11
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    It's funny that people consider Fe to be lying and falsehood, because, in all honesty, I tend to view Fi as being hypocritical and self-absorbed. I'm sure Fi cares a lot about people, but it seems unwilling to accommodate them, and it usually won't even bother to explain why it won't accommodate hem. Instead they'll move the discussion towards something else, or conclude that it's "pointless" to talk about. Like, you want me to go out of my way to accomodate you, but you can't even explain why I should be doing this? That's probably, like, one of the few things I need.

    I suppose it's that I'm supposed to have the passion or inner drive to do whatever it is you want without needing to talk about it. I'm not entirely capable of figuring out what people want even when they won't tell me. That being said, if someone tells me something is "fine" I'm going to take them at their word. It's like, the minimum I need, not to be told things are "fine" when they clearly aren't. (And how is that not dishonest?)

    It doesn't seem fair that I should put in so much effort, and then when it comes to what I ask them to do, they act as though I'm imposing some unreasonable hardship. If you want me to respond to your moods, and engage with them, and "support" you, I'm going to need you to at least tell me what the hell is going on in your head at least some of the time. What is so unreasonable, unfair, or oppressive about that?

    Granted, some of that is Ti, not Fe.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  2. #12
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    ...and the next Fi/Fe shitting thread is off, people.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  3. #13
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Plus I think it has to do with Fe being an Extraverted Judging function, so it acts on whatever information it is has at hand, as opposed to seeking new information (P functions). Fe acts in the external world to optimize the situation by creating structure, and I think that's where the general boundaries come in, so that we sort of have a basis for everyone interacting in a positive way. Fe utilizes external information, so a Fe user takes in whatever others put out into the environment and act accordingly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    It would be useful as an evolutionary tool; the emergence of an ingroup would allow some animals to survive where otherwise would not have. With groups watching out for each other (and helping to protect the brood and the mother when her survival tactics are compromised with the need to raise young) they would survive and it would become an advantage mutation. It has in my understanding been a critical tool for groups up until more or less the modern era so it has continuously developed and advanced into the Fe of today.
    Both good points. But something that has always bothered me about how Fe is described is that it is often outlined as a function depending entirely on environment and that without a positive environment it becomes used to bad practice and poor conduct, because that would be the social norm.

    I can't imagine, for example, Fe ever coming up with ideas of rebellion or social change, without those ideas first being implanted in the Fe's environment by external sources. The flimsiness of this is quite frightening when you examine it.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  4. #14
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    ...and the next Fi/Fe shitting thread is off, people.
    Looking in the mirror while pooping.


  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    It's funny that people consider Fe to be lying and falsehood, because, in all honesty, I tend to view Fi as being hypocritical and self-absorbed. I'm sure Fi cares a lot about people, but it seems unwilling to accommodate them, and it usually won't even bother to explain why it won't accommodate hem. Instead they'll move the discussion towards something else, or conclude that it's "pointless" to talk about. Like, you want me to go out of my way to accomodate you, but you can't even explain why I should be doing this? That's probably, like, one of the few things I need.

    Granted, some of that is Ti, not Fe.
    Hang on there a second my blubbery friend. I shall shit on your post in a way that hopefully allows Ti to analyze the effluence with a degree of grace.

    a) First sentence seems to apply to this Fi-disease ridden synapse sadsack that statement two being correct makes statement one incorrect. How is this so? Of what Fe logic is this? Both could surely be true could they not? A way of fixing the first line would be "People may consider Fe to be about lying and falsehood, however, in all honesty, I tend to view Fi as being hypocritical and self-absorbed."

    b) Sentence two says one thing: Fi isn't about lying and falsehood. An Fi user won't accommodate them if Fi does not value it. If Fi determines something is pointless to talk about the Fi user will change the subject. If Fi users act like they care about you then they care about you. What you are seeing is an accurate translation of the Fi-user's feelings. There is much to why an Fi user comes to said conclusion or evaluates something at a certain amount but alas it is not something which can be quantified and displayed out on the page. Compare this with Fe which is in this context a mere smokescreen. From what I know about studying my SFJ mother and NTPs online is that there is a huge discrepancy between how you act and what you actually think. Meanwhile the Fi user sees through this smokescreen and asks themselves: "What was the fucking point of this disingenuous performance?"

    c) Fi users need less from you than you think. They usually need accommodation from you so they can get through an internal conflict of some description. Once the issue is resolved they won't ask (nor perhaps need) your accommodation.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Both good points. But something that has always bothered me about how Fe is described is that it is often outlined as a function depending entirely on environment and that without a positive environment it becomes used to bad practice and poor conduct, because that would be the social norm.

    I can't imagine, for example, Fe ever coming up with ideas of rebellion or social change, without those ideas first being implanted in the Fe's environment by external sources. The flimsiness of this is quite frightening when you examine it.
    Is it frightening? What doesn't require external sources in some shape or form? Fi owes everything to the extroverted perceiving function, without Se/Ne it would never be able to evaluate new data and be gradually shaped and refined into something new. Besides the Fe user has Ti to create a logical model which criticises the existing organisations and logical models of the world. The Fe user can take up arms because Fe isn't the only function they use.

  7. #17
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Is it frightening? What doesn't require external sources in some shape or form? Fi owes everything to the extroverted perceiving function, without Se/Ne it would never be able to evaluate new data and be gradually shaped and refined into something new. Besides the Fe user has Ti to create a logical model which criticises the existing organisations and logical models of the world. The Fe user can take up arms because Fe isn't the only function they use.
    Yes, no function is ever alone, but for a strong Fe user to forgo their environmental values and use something as alien to them as Ti..must take a pretty fucked up Fe user.

    If anything they are less likely to beat against the status quo, precisely because of that environmental reliance. Of course all functions require external sources to cogitate, but it is how those sources are filtered and understood that is important.

    An Fe user might take up arms, but they are less likely to than other types and I find that dangerous, especially when it is needed.

    Fi might require the external perceptions of Ne/Se but it always judges those assumptions through a personal filter. Fe on the other hand, whether with Ni or Si, is always relying on a standard already set, since their perception always filters information down to what their judgement most adheres to already.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  8. #18
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    That being said, if someone tells me something is "fine" I'm going to take them at their word. It's like, the minimum I need, not to be told things are "fine" when they clearly aren't. (And how is that not dishonest?)
    I dont understand this about Fe users. Can't you read facial expressions? If someone tells you they're fine but they have a *strange* look on their face or their body language doesn't match their words, can't you see it?

  9. #19
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    Finally, we've arrived at my pet issue.

  10. #20
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    I dont understand this about Fe users. Can't you read facial expressions? If someone tells you they're fine but they have a *strange* look on their face or their body language doesn't match their words, can't you see it?
    Yes, but how exactly can I help you if you can't tell me what's going on? Being able to tell that something's wrong, and knowing what that is are two different things. Facial expressions don't help with the latter unless you're acutely aware of the context. I think Fi users think I'm supposed to know what that is without them telling me for my help to "mean" anything. Am I off here?

    Am I just supposed to try things that might help without knowing whether they will help or just make things worse? That's taxing. So why can't you make the small effort to step back a moment and find some words to express yourself? If I'm going to go to all this effort to make you feel better, you might help me just a little with what I need. I don't like feeling shit on when I'm trying really hard, so can we find a way around that?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

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