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  1. #91
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post


    I disagree.

    I think it's problematic to use the functions in a problematic manner.

    Just as it's problematic to use an axe, a picture frame, or a tomato in a problematic manner.

    There's nothing inherently wrong about the idea of the cognitive functions.

    What's problematic is when people use the idea problematically.
    You're right that there is nothing inherently wrong with the cognitive functions. I was just saying that when one gets too much into functions, it can be difficult not to think in terms of "so-so did this because their Fi clashed with my Fe", "I am this way because I am in the inferior grip or dom/tertiary loop", or "I don't get along with person because he's XXXX", or something to that effect even if it might something completely unrelated.

    In my opinion, it can be a bit limiting if you read too much into it.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    I'll just give my abrasive yet honest perspective to rebut any Fe hate.
    Not exactly a promising preamble to a post...

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Analogically speaking, I get frustrated with Te because from my perspective its user's are aggressive, oppressive, and don't even listen to what I have to say as a Ti.
    Why do you think they make you feel this way?

    Why do you think they (re)act in such a way?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    With that being said, I wonder if Fe and Fi doms get frustrated with one another because they don't listen to each other.
    The difference I see in Fe vs Fi and Te vs Ti is that T is supposed to be an objective, purely logical domain, whereas F is a subjective, not-purely-logical domain (rather, it's values-based). As such, the Te vs Ti problem is really annoying, because the two should be able hash things out objectively/logically (and, well, probably often can, I think), but often subjective factors get in the way (Ti's inherent subjectivity, that messes with its counterposing desire to be objective; Te's shadow Fi, which can seep in, and cause the TJ to actually be less objective than they think they are being).

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Considering the enormous number of INFP's on this website my first conjecture would be that the amount of Fe hate is based on the number of FP's on the site who have an issue with being "put into a box."
    The TJs often can't stand it, either.

    I am one who is definitely often rankled by Fe.

    And hell, even a good number of the TPs are bothered by it (often due to rejection/suppression of the inferior).

    For whatever reason, Fe seems to get more hate than any other function, and it's not just from FPs.

    I think it has something to do with it making subjective value judgments that it (falsely) considers to be objective.

    That act of judging has implications for those being judged, and that mistaking what is actually subjective (and normative) for being objective seems to be rather inherently irksome (Fe, as seen in what I wrote above about Te and Ti, is not the only function to make this objective/subjective mistake, but I think it's this conflation combined with the judging of others based on that conflation that causes Fe to be so widely held in contempt).

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Likewise, from my perspective (an Fe user) I have little sympathy for Fi dominants because, Fe users can feel whatever they want to feel, but usually have the common courtesy to keep it to themselves. From our perspective, we're allowed to feel whatever we want to. That's our right.
    It's funny how much this sounds like what one would expect to come from an Fi user's mouth.

    As such, I have a feeling simply "being allowed to feel what one does" is probably not the source of the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    However Fi dominants usually pick up on internal value judgements of others and thus take offense from these silent judgements...
    This seems pretty insightful.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    ...and, from our point of view, proactively go out of their way to be offended.
    But this seems problematic, in light of what you said before.

    I mean, if Fi users just naturally pick up on people's internal value judgments, then how out of their way must they go to be offended?

    If the value judgment they pick up on is false, shallow, and arbitrary/group-normative-based, why shouldn't they be offended?

    I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like they don't really go out of their way much to be offended...

    It seems rather automatic -- like they inherently dislike false, shallow, group/normative-based judgments.

    (that being said, aren't there probably tons of FP hipsters who do similar such judging all the time?)

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    ...
    A couple questions:

    First off, have you considered the possibility that Fe users aren't really keeping these feelings/judgments to themselves? They might not be actively voicing them (at least the moment), but they very well may be exhuding them (not to mention talking about them later, behind the person's back). That's not exactly "keeping the feelings/judgments to themself". Quite the opposite, really.

    Have you considered the possibility that these judgments are shallow and false, and that judging in such a way is inherently problematic?

    That perhaps by engaging in less shallow and false judging, Fe users would trigger less negative responses from Fi users.

    Honest question. I think your explanation was reasonable. But I'm trying to find where both parties can improve.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    For example, everyone is having fun at a party, and an Fi user gets in a fight...
    I'm confused by your example... do only Fi users get in fights or something?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    ...thus ruining the fun atmosphere. I'd rather be listening to the music and dissolving my soul into dreamland euphoria instead of listening to how someone is pissed at someone else. Put aside your differences for a few minutes and have some fun for a change. In a sense, it almost feels as if the party is all about the Fi person and no longer about the party itself. Completely self centered and uncaring of anyone else's feelings. Its abrasive.
    *can't help but think about Nietzsche's herd animal metaphors*

    *attempts to accept people for who they are*

    *succeeds*


    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    All around me there are people who feel negative things about me, and I can sense these things. However, I appreciate that they don't act on these judgements and keep it to themselves. If it become a problems I'll usually do what I can do fix the situation.
    This was an interesting line.

    Makes me wonder how this differs from Fi users, and how they go about interacting in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Fe dominants are usually trying to do whatever they can to maintain a peaceful atmosphere and keep things friendly. This however, can backfire when the Fe users are too chicken to approach the other person and settle any beef.
    Or when they present one face to a person/about a situation at one time, but another face elsewhere/another time.

    I think such a thing is just as problematic for Te, actually, as Fi.

    Both would rather just have the truth, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    As a Ti dom, I'm the unfortunate hybrid of confrontational and harmony seeking in this situation, where I ask questions and try to settle our differences in a direct and curt fashion and get to the root of the problem. I also know plenty of Ti doms who have absolutely no concern for group harmony and make complete asses of themselves in public, (ie: me in high school).
    Yeah, it definitely gets dealt with by FJs and TPs in different ways.

    But y'all are still on a wavelength very similar to one another.

    And so different from FPs and TJs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    You're right that there is nothing inherently wrong with the cognitive functions. I was just saying that when one gets too much into functions, it can be difficult not to think in terms of "so-so did this because their Fi clashed with my Fe", "I am this way because I am in the inferior grip or dom/tertiary loop", or "I don't get along with person because he's XXXX", or something to that effect even if it might something completely unrelated.

    In my opinion, it can be a bit limiting if you read too much into it.
    I think one always needs to try and maintain proper perspective.

    But, that being said, any of those things you mention (loops, function conflicts, etc) can be accurate and true, imo.

    Wisdom lies in learning to apply the right concepts at the right time.

  4. #94
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Wisdom lies in learning to apply the right concepts at the right time.
    Like genocide for example, there's always a time and a place and at some point an appropriate configuration of necessity and context will arise to support it.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Why do you think they make you feel this way?
    Te Fi is funny. The Te uses only objective facts over subjective logic (Ti). Either what they're saying is true or false, or slightly mistaken. But the point is, the only way to argue against objective facts is to say "That never happened." This in turn makes the Te user think they're being accused of lying. This in turn becomes a giant penis contest of whoever has the bigger ego. So "Intillectual" conversations are often just attempts at emotional domination and not an actual logical debate in the way Ti users argue with one another. To me, it appears unproductive, tyrannical and even childish.

    The difference I see in Fe vs Fi and Te vs Ti is that T is supposed to be an objective, purely logical domain, whereas F is a subjective, not-purely-logical domain (rather, it's values-based). As such, the Te vs Ti problem is really annoying, because the two should be able hash things out objectively/logically (and, well, probably often can, I think), but often subjective factors get in the way (Ti's inherent subjectivity, that messes with its counterposing desire to be objective; Te's shadow Fi, which can seep in, and cause the TJ to actually be less objective than they think they are being).
    What you are describing are Fi vs Te. Fi is the only feeling function that can be debated. Fe can not.
    Ti can be debated as well. Te can not.

    The TJs often can't stand it, either.

    I am one who is definitely often rankled by Fe.

    And hell, even a good number of the TPs are bothered by it (often due to rejection/suppression of the inferior).

    For whatever reason, Fe seems to get more hate than any other function, and it's not just from FPs.

    I think it has something to do with it making subjective value judgments that it (falsely) considers to be objective.

    That act of judging has implications for those being judged, and that mistaking what is actually subjective (and normative) for being objective seems to be rather inherently irksome (Fe, as seen in what I wrote above about Te and Ti, is not the only function to make this objective/subjective mistake, but I think it's this conflation combined with the judging of others based on that conflation that causes Fe to be so widely held in contempt).
    TP's can be rankled by Fe, sure. But even then a lot of TP's secretly enjoy the Fe drama.

    It's funny how much this sounds like what one would expect to come from an Fi user's mouth.

    As such, I have a feeling simply "being allowed to feel what one does" is probably not the source of the problem.
    We all have Fi in some form or another.

    But this seems problematic, in light of what you said before.

    I mean, if Fi users just naturally pick up on people's internal value judgments, then how out of their way must they go to be offended?
    I think what I should have said was, Fi users go out of their way to make it apparent that they disagree. As in, person A and B are having a racist conversation, Fi person C hears it and feels a compulsion to step into a conversation that is ultimately none of their business, whether its insulting or not.

    If the value judgment they pick up on is false, shallow, and arbitrary/group-normative-based, why shouldn't they be offended?
    Because the people making these judgements don't have any relevance or association with the Fi user in the first place. Its invasive.

    A couple questions:

    First off, have you considered the possibility that Fe users aren't really keeping these feelings/judgments to themselves? They might not be actively voicing them (at least the moment), but they very well may be exhuding them (not to mention talking about them later, behind the person's back). That's not exactly "keeping the feelings/judgments to themself". Quite the opposite, really.
    See, they're not verbally stating them. Its still an assumption on your end as you try to judge the internal value judgements of these people. One key difference between Fe and Fi is that Fe can be reworded as objective emotion, while Fi can be reworded as subjective emotion. Fi doms often times don't require verbal affirmations of affection in relationships because... they just assume it on their own.

    Fe users on the other hand often times need verbal affirmations because they don't assume anything until it is verbally stated, which is why TP's are so straight forward and businesslike (and awkward) when it comes to dating.

    "Hey, I like you. Do you like me?"

    Have you considered the possibility that these judgments are shallow and false, and that judging in such a way is inherently problematic?
    Who is the correct judge of what is shallow or false?

    That perhaps by engaging in less shallow and false judging, Fe users would trigger less negative responses from Fi users.
    I would need an example of a shallow and false Fe judgement. I know I'll categorize people like, "he's a gymnast" or "he's a military guy" just because these generalizations assist in overall communication with the person. As an Fe user I tend to talk to a LOT of people on a shallow level vs one or two in depth, because I find that more stimulating. (Its also why I can count the number of connections I've felt with people in my life on two hands.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Te Fi is funny. The Te uses only objective facts over subjective logic (Ti). Either what they're saying is true or false, or slightly mistaken. But the point is, the only way to argue against objective facts is to say "That never happened." This in turn makes the Te user think they're being accused of lying. This in turn becomes a giant penis contest of whoever has the bigger ego. So "Intillectual" conversations are often just attempts at emotional domination and not an actual logical debate in the way Ti users argue with one another. To me, it appears unproductive, tyrannical and even childish.
    I never understand how this contortion happens.

    How does "Te uses only objective facts" somehow become "giant penis contest of whoever has the bigger ego"?

    No offense, but I really doubt this interpretation arises only because of the actions of the Te user.

    What is it about the Ti user that causes them to interpret the situation as a "giant penis contest of whoever has the bigger ego" and/or participate in such a way that the situation turns into what they interpret as a "giant penis contest of whoever has the bigger ego"?

    It just seems like a big jump from "only uses objective facts" to "only cares about ego aggrandizement".

    On a related note: you didn't answer why it is you think Te users might (re)act in such a way (i.e., a way you interpret as aggressive, oppressive, etc.)...

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    What you are describing are Fi vs Te.
    Hmm...

    I don't think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Fi is the only feeling function that can be debated. Fe can not.
    Ti can be debated as well. Te can not.
    I have no idea what you mean by "can be debated" and "cannot be debated"...

    What are you trying to say here?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    TP's can be rankled by Fe, sure. But even then a lot of TP's secretly enjoy the Fe drama.
    So there is Fe drama?

    Fi is not the only one that stirs up unnecessary drama?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    I think what I should have said was, Fi users go out of their way to make it apparent that they disagree. As in, person A and B are having a racist conversation, Fi person C hears it and feels a compulsion to step into a conversation that is ultimately none of their business, whether its insulting or not.
    Seems like that could be pretty valuable.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Because the people making these judgements don't have any relevance or association with the Fi user in the first place. Its invasive.
    If they're making a judgment about the Fi user, they don't have any relevance or association with them?

    Doesn't seem like that to me.

    Seems like they have both relevance (as people who are judging their person) and association (as people who are judging their person).

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    See, they're not verbally stating them. Its still an assumption on your end as you try to judge the internal value judgements of these people.
    And what if the assumption is accurate?

    People do indeed feel things that they do no state.

    And one can correctly intuit these feelings that are not stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    One key difference between Fe and Fi is that Fe can be reworded as objective emotion, while Fi can be reworded as subjective emotion.
    So long as a very specific meaning of "objective" and "subjective" here are kept in mind, I don't have much issue with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Fi doms often times don't require verbal affirmations of affection in relationships because... they just assume it on their own.
    Is this true?

    Fi doms?

    I have dated plenty of EFPs for whom this definitely is not true.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Who is the correct judge of what is shallow or false?
    One who knows the actual, objective truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    I would need an example of a shallow and false Fe judgement.
    My mom is an ESFJ.

    She'll often label certain people as "weird".

    I know why she's doing it, but, it's shallow, and only really means "this person is different from what I consider normal".

    But my mom's conception of what is normal is not objective -- it's simply her subjective, normative value judgment.

    Furthermore, inherent in her calling somebody "weird" is a certain negative judgment of that person.

    As such, there might not be anything inherently weird (or, more importantly, bad) about a person she's labeled weird.

    They just differ from her standard of what is considered normal.

    That is shallow and false.

    And very simplistic and tribalistic.

    I think Fe people often engage in this kind of simplistic, tribalistic, in-group/out-group sort of behavior.

    (then again, considering what I said above about FP hipsters, maybe it's not just an Fe thing.)

  7. #97
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Wait a second, where's @Riva ?

    I love, Riva, how you just start a Fe/Fi thread knowinbg full well it will balloon quickly & have plenty of contention in it, and then just sort of walk away, probably laughing your ass off at the mess it will make. Things must have been getting still around here, or that INFJ/INFP thread has been too peaceful.

    You're soooo Ne! You're my hero for the next 23 minutes, Riva.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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    @Zarathustra

    ffs wall of text. I'll only respond to 2 things.

    The arguments turn into a penis contest because, objective data cannot be argued. Only the person's reputation for storing objective data and whether or not he is a credible source of objective data.

    You shouldn't get upset when someone calls you "wierd." Yeah, its incredibly shallow. And we ourselves don't take something like that very seriously either. I wonder if you're expecting the statement to be much more thought out than it actually is or something.

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    I wonder if you hold some sort of emotional content for the word "wierd" that we ourselves do not.

    One thing I've always said is that Ti speaks with the definitions of the words in mind, while Fi speaks with the emotional content in mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    ffs wall of text.
    Less wall of text.

    More properly responding to most of the points that you made.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    I'll only respond to 2 things.
    Noted.

    But if you're gunna label Te debate style as "unproductive" and "childish", I don't know how lowly you'd rate such an effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    The arguments turn into a penis contest because, objective data cannot be argued.
    Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Only the person's reputation for storing objective data and whether or not he is a credible source of objective data.
    I don't see how that must be the case.

    John says A is what happened.

    B is what actually happened.

    Jack says John is wrong, that A is not what happened, but that B is what actually happened.

    Jack brings witnesses, photos, film, and audio, showing that B is what happened.

    John merely keeps repeating that A is what happened.

    The objective data was argued.

    ***

    For those keeping score:

    Jack was right.

    John was wrong.

    John is an asshat.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    You shouldn't get upset when someone calls you "wierd." Yeah, its incredibly shallow. And we ourselves don't take something like that very seriously either. I wonder if you're expecting the statement to be much more thought out than it actually is or something.
    Well, I'm not too personally concerned with my example, cuz my mom never really calls me weird (even tho, in reality, I kinda am).

    That was just an example -- as asked for -- that came to mind of shallow and false Fe-style judging.

    Also, weren't you arguing before that people have the right to feel how they feel?

    Why, as a TJ, am I the one correcting the logical consistency of the TP?

    I thought I wasn't supposed to care about logic, or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    I wonder if you hold some sort of emotional content for the word "wierd" that we ourselves do not.
    I just think many of y'all (not all, tho) are excessively concerned with lame in-group/out-group dynamics.

    (but, once again, I don't think Fi-users are immune to this, per the FP hipster example.)

    I just think Fe-users often tend to be more concerned with that stuff than Fi users.

    It's like a matrix that Fe users seem highly connected to, that Fi users do not.

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