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  1. #1
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Default Ti and Te arguing: The film critic vs. the lawyer

    So I've noticed that there seems to be a strong distinction between the way that Ti users and Te users argue. In an argument I call the Ti user, "The film critic". Film critics will watch a movie, and pick it apart and tell you what's all wrong with it, and Ti users are basically the same way. In an argument a Ti user will poke holes in other's logic, they will tell people what is wrong with their argument, and will point out discrepancies in others arguments. Oh, and in case you were wondering, by dependencies I mean that they will say things like, "Ok you said this, then this, and then this. All of that contradicts each other and doesn't add up." The Ti user is not convinced that someone else is right unless you are able to convince them that your argument is logical to their internal system of logic.

    Te users on the other hand are a bit different. When a Te user argues they tend to have more of an empirical approach: The Te user will reference external facts and point out how what the other person is saying is not congruent with known external facts. The Te user will also reference works of known professionals in the field and talk about how what you say is in-congruent with this known expert in the field's research. Finally, the Te user will present evidence that is clearly in front of you both, in order to prove to you that you are wrong. This is why I call the Te user the lawyer, because lawyers have a similar approach in a court room: they present evidence in the court room and the verdict is all based on evidence that is gathered.

    Would you all agree?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    The Ti user is not convinced that someone else is right unless you are able to convince them that your argument is logical to their internal system of logic.
    You can not,actually they just want to protect their feelings,it sounds like Fi,but they are protecting Fe.

    You can found a lot of them in Linux forums.

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    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    At least from a Ti perspective it seems accurate. If I think someone is wrong I'll typically try to walk through why their idea doesn't make sense, and once that's broken down I start to put together my argument. It doesn't seem as effective for everyone to pull outside authorities in because everyone just listens to who they like. Not that I'll never bring in facts but generally only really solid stuff not like current expert opinions.

    Though when I've fought with Te doms they didn't even really try to convince me as much as just steamroll me into doing what they wanted. Sort of a "the facts don't matter right now" combined with a very dominating physicality. It sounds hard but one was actually not mean about it more just very direct. The other was a huuuuuuge bitch about it.

  4. #4
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I too find that Te types often don't want to argue/debate. They want to pronounce the "rules", and then implement them, and move you to those goals. (Which may include nothing more than getting you out of their way or "out of their hair").

    On the other hand, the aspect of Te "referencing other professionals" for me comes up as "backup" for dominant Ti. I realize others may not respect my own word, so I have to appeal to those they do respect, or those whose theories I have found common elements in to synthesize my own theory out of. (This was once mistaken as tertiary Te by people).
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  5. #5
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    Sounds fair enough. Ti users have to understand that Te is more about what works than about finding the perfect/ideal answer, just like Fe is more about what works than finding the perfect/ideal answer, so sitting in endless debate or argument feels quite pointless - by the time you've reached a conclusion, the situation that you're trying to address may very well be gone, or at least the parameters will likely have changed enough that the "perfect" solution is no longer applicable. I think it's a huge difference that Je seems to operate "within time" constrictions, while Ji seems to operate "outside time" constrictions.

    It's like one day I was managing at work, and our department was two people down. One of my supervisors, who I believe is an INTP, came to talk to me about the list of things to do that day, all of which have certain locked-in time deadlines. I already had more work than I could realistically deal with - 3 people to cover 5 jobs - and was moving as quickly as possible to delegate what tasks I could and streamline the rest. I explained the situation to him, and he got upset that I wasn't following the normal tasklist to the exact specifications. To me, trying to follow that list on that day would be pointless and counterproductive, because there was no realistic way we could get everything done "properly". I would much rather complete all our day's tasks at 80% and then go back and augment as necessary, depending on what people bought, rather than finishing 80% of the tasks perfectly and discovering that the 20% that we didn't do completely screwed us over sales-wise.

    But it's not like Te users don't appreciate or like finding ideal solutions. I think we just would much rather do it in our downtime, when it's not a pressing issue. I explained to my supervisor that I would love to discuss the task specifications with him, but not that day, because we were already losing time and money. In the heat of the moment, we just want to get things done before the window of opportunity closes.

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    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    NiTe and TiNe argue about whether relativity theory represents the absolute truth of things or whether it just seems as if its the truth;

    TiNe: Relativity theory only seems to be true because it works, but i can give you many examples that are logical about it is only being seemingly true *inserts many examples*

    NiTe: But it has been tested and it works, therefore it is true. Also einstein predicted a lot of things with it, like curvature of the space-time.

    TiNe: I just gave you many logical reasons why it only seems to be true, but in reality only looks like it because it works. You see the curvature of space-time is another example, its just a model that works, but can be explained with other factors aswell *insert reasons*.

    NiTe: But there is also the math that works, that at least makes it the absolute truth.

    TiNe: Math working doesent mean shit because its based on assumptions, which are based on assumptions, which are based on assumptions.. You know, you can build a working model in logic that is internally consistent and which gives the right answer, but which isnt the reality of things.

    NiTe: But those assumptions are things that have always worked, therefore they can be regarded as the truth.

    And this goes on for hours
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    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I too find that Te types often don't want to argue/debate. They want to pronounce the "rules", and then implement them, and move you to those goals. (Which may include nothing more than getting you out of their way or "out of their hair").

    On the other hand, the aspect of Te "referencing other professionals" for me comes up as "backup" for dominant Ti. I realize others may not respect my own word, so I have to appeal to those they do respect, or those whose theories I have found common elements in to synthesize my own theory out of. (This was once mistaken as tertiary Te by people).
    It is interesting that you say that you often reference facts many times when you are stuck because I do the same thing. Can you explain to me how you do this because I am once again on the fence about my type.

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    Member RoadPaveMent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    On the other hand, the aspect of Te "referencing other professionals" for me comes up as "backup" for dominant Ti. I realize others may not respect my own word, so I have to appeal to those they do respect, or those whose theories I have found common elements in to synthesize my own theory out of.
    Same. I'll pick their argument apart word by word, and if they reject my argument, I'll use outside sources to show them that I'm not the only one who thinks in that way.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    NiTe and TiNe argue about whether relativity theory represents the absolute truth of things or whether it just seems as if its the truth;

    TiNe: Relativity theory only seems to be true because it works, but i can give you many examples that are logical about it is only being seemingly true *inserts many examples*

    NiTe: But it has been tested and it works, therefore it is true. Also einstein predicted a lot of things with it, like curvature of the space-time.

    TiNe: I just gave you many logical reasons why it only seems to be true, but in reality only looks like it because it works. You see the curvature of space-time is another example, its just a model that works, but can be explained with other factors aswell *insert reasons*.

    NiTe: But there is also the math that works, that at least makes it the absolute truth.

    TiNe: Math working doesent mean shit because its based on assumptions, which are based on assumptions, which are based on assumptions.. You know, you can build a working model in logic that is internally consistent and which gives the right answer, but which isnt the reality of things.

    NiTe: But those assumptions are things that have always worked, therefore they can be regarded as the truth.

    And this goes on for hours
    This is funny because by your definition I would have Ti. I've always thought that mathematical speculations about space and time are much to imaginary and speculative to be "absolutely accurate." Same as with anyone who says "God definitely does not exist because of math." I almost want to shake people who talk like this, I'm like if you haven't seen it with your own eyes or can't measure it, how can you be so sure?

    I thought It was Se and Te that made me think this way.

    However, I've heard that Te appeals to authoritative sources, and it's true, I do that, I like to talk about statistics and stuff.

    Your last sentence actually sounds like something an STJ would say, not an NTJ. Because it's always worked? Nah nah.

  10. #10
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    This sounds sort of akin to rationalism vs. empiricism. Rationalism seems sort of Ti, and empiricism seems sort of Te.
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