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  1. #1
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Default Differences between ENTJs and ESTJs

    The subtitle for this thread should be, "aka why are ENTJ descriptions so sucky and useless?"

    I've got a pretty good grip on what ESTJs are like but I don't entirely understand how they differ from ENTJs. IMO most descriptions for ENTJs are incredibly vague and basically make them sound like little more than extra-bossy ESTJs. I think I can mostly tell the difference when I meet one of these types (or in fictional characters) but I couldn't exactly define what factors I'm going on. I've also wondered lately if I've mistyped someone I know. I need more in-depth definitions to clarify this murky area.

    I basically gather ENTJs:

    - are more future-oriented
    - are more anticipatory rather than reactive
    - make decisions based on more instinctive interpretations of situations
    - are more comprehensive strategists
    - are (almost) always the villain in the story (seriously, it's hard to come up with a list of non-villainous ENTJ fictional characters )

    But beyond that the descriptions don't sound very distinct from ESTJ. ESTJs are also great leaders and co-ordinators; they're also just as bold and resourceful. ESTJs seem to be more preservers of order and justice, rather than iconoclasts that ENTJs appear to be. But then, all the ESTJs I've known have been troublemakers at some point (they seem to make very rebellious teenagers), they regularly question authority and are always attempting to dismantle and overhaul the systems/structures they function within. ESTJs not just the stick-in-the-muds they're often made out to be.

    So, questions:
    -If a ENTJ isn't running a multi-national corporation or twirling his moustache and laughing maniacally, what do they look like (in everyday life)? What are their defining characteristics?
    -What makes a ESTJ distinct from a ENTJ beyond the typical, bland, "they're more traditional and conservative" description? What are their defining characteristics?
    - What are the comparative strengths and weaknesses of each type?


    And, just for the EXTJs:
    - Are you generally satisfied with the descriptions of your type or do you find them lacking?
    - What characteristics do you think should be better put across?
    - Which fictional character do you think exemplifies your type? Or which one do you particularly like and admire?
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    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #2
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    My experience with self-typed ENTJs (I've never known any otherwise) is that they are more playful than ESTJs for some reason, they still seem bossy and self-assured, like a Te dom, but I find them altogether very to easy understand why they'd get mixed with ESxPs. I do think it is the tertiary Se.

    In fact if I were to describe the self-typed ENTJ that I've known the best IRL, I would say he was something like a cross between an INTJ and an ESTP.

  3. #3
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    -If a ENTJ isn't running a multi-national corporation or twirling his moustache and laughing maniacally, what do they look like (in everyday life)? What are their defining characteristics?
    -What makes a ESTJ distinct from a ENTJ beyond the typical, bland, "they're more traditional and conservative" description? What are their defining characteristics?
    The ESTJs I've known have been like the ISTJs I've known in that you really get that vibe that they're constantly surveying the environment looking for something to fix. Or, when they're talking to you, you might feel like they're sizing you up. I've talked to people who say that they often feel judged around ESTJs and that's why they don't like them, i.e. that they're constantly worried about not measuring up to some unspoken standard.

    Whereas... I don't really get that vibe from my ENTJ friends, or at least, not to the same extent. When I've befriended ENTJs, I've definitely felt sized up, but in a more distant way -- kind of like the stereotype about INTJs silently judging everyone, but not feeling the need to step in when they're unimpressed. Thus: the ENTJs I know are more "chill", not nearly as likely to sweat the small stuff, and more likely to be able to sit back and enjoy the moment when they're feeling particularly indulgent (Se!). ESTJs, on the other hand, are more likely to be obsessive workaholics. ESTJs often have to rationalize their hobbies as being "productive", somehow, and I haven't met an ENTJ that felt the need to make those excuses. While ESTJs might seem like they have mood swings from work mode to silly mode (Ne!), my ENTJ friends seem much more consistent. Anecdotally, I'd guess that ESTJs are more likely to take themselves too seriously.

    Please, ENTJs, correct me on this if I'm wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    And, just for the EXTJs:
    - Are you generally satisfied with the descriptions of your type or do you find them lacking?
    I like them fine, for the most part. I think they assume that we're all choleric and type 8, meaning if you're not that, the type description will make you out to be much more domineering and power-focused than you really are. Also, I think descriptions in general are biased heavily towards NTs and against STs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    - What characteristics do you think should be better put across?
    That we mean well, and see ourselves as working for the greater good. There's a presumption that's pretty easy to get from type descriptions, that ESTJs are out for power for the sake of power, and authority for the sake of authority, and want to control everything just because they like being the boss, when, unless the ESTJ is unhealthy, I've found that to be completely untrue. A lot of ESTJs are motivated by their deep devotion to a cause, be it helping the poor or improving a company's productivity or what have you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    - Which fictional character do you think exemplifies your type? Or which one do you particularly like and admire?
    Hermione Granger!

    ... *waits for the inevitable "HERMIONE IS AN ISTJ"*...
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  4. #4
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    I agree that the ENTJ descriptions out there are pretty shitty. The best one I've ever read is the one on the bestfittype website, which felt like something I could have written myself.

    ENTJs, god bless us, are sort of messy people. As an ENTJ, I use Ni to create sort of a broad roadmap, but depend on Se to really make it happen. What that means is that even after I make a plan, I'm constantly filtering in new information to adjust it and troubleshoot as problems arise. I don't necessarily plan for contingencies as I'm fairly confident to handle problems in the moment.

    I feel like ESTJs are a lot more methodical in the way that they approach the planning process. They really drill down to the specific, tangible processes that are going to make a plan work. From my experience of them, the sorta "on the fly" Se stuff that I love so much is, like, tantamount to failure for an ESTJ. I'll admit that I don't fully understand how Te-Ne operates together, but I know they like to get all aspects right at the outset. We're comfortable with a sketch, knowing that the full picture will emerge as the project gets underway.

    Meanwhile, I'm going to be obnoxious and quote myself from @LeaT's thread on the aux function in ETJs:

    Mmm. I'm unsure I'm really capable of decoupling the two, really. Te-Ni is about essential concepts. Stripping an object down to it's core, so you can say what it is fundamentally that makes that thing different from all others. That essentialising process is what allows me to be creative in my problem solving. I'll have these models in my head, and can point to how whatever I'm addressing matches some element of that pattern, which gives me the ability to maneuver the thing however I please. I've described elsewhere how that essentialising process is what allows us to build efficiency in a process. Ni envisions the process as a whole, then Te allows you to collapse it however much you need to without violating the parameters dictated by the end goal. I think the keyword for Ni led by Te is "actualizing", taking ideas and bringing them to a tangible outcome. It no doubt truncates some of the visionary depth of Ni to view it as a tactical tool, but at the end of the day that's all Ni is to me--a tool. It makes the ends set by Te a bit more multi-dimensional, and it ensures that the road you take to those points are laid out well in advanced. I'm not always comfortable with pure theory, and when I'm speculating without really knowing how I'm reaching the conclusions I'm making it can make me feel highly exposed, even if what I've said turns out to be correct.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Rush Limbaugh = ENTJ.

    Power tie.
    Bombastic on the air, not off the air.
    Has a public and a private persona.
    Light handshake (doesn't want to squash anybody's hand)
    Uses humor and reason to get his point across.
    Yells at his call screener on the air.
    High achiever, organized.
    Concerned with the future of his country and the Republican party.
    Loves popularity and the limelight if it serves a higher function.
    Ambitious, energetic.
    Rather shy and humble in public.
    Gracious and generous off the air.
    Has been a prescription drug addict.
    Stirs up controversy, "shock jock," to prove a point.
    Uses liberals' rhetorical tactics against them.
    Tries to anger the "opposition" in order to throw them off balance.
    Endomorphic body type.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #6
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    Rush Limbaugh does not use reason, he uses propaganda and exaggeration, kind of like Ann Coulter does. He's a shock-jock pundit and an Enneagram 6. If he's an ENTJ he uses more Se than Ni.

    He's actually not a high achiever, either. He's like some fat dude who went to community college.

    Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh do nothing to recommend NTJs to the public at large, it makes them all seem like exaggerating, narcissistic crazy people...or people who prey on the ignorant in order to make money.

    I'm betting on the latter.

    Rush Limbaugh uses REASON? Rush Limbaugh is a biased, hypocritical, blabber-mouth.

    He should win some kind of award for "dumbest ENTJ alive."

  7. #7
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Rush Limbaugh = ENTJ.

    Power tie.
    Bombastic on the air, not off the air.
    Has a public and a private persona.
    Light handshake (doesn't want to squash anybody's hand)
    Uses humor and reason to get his point across.
    Yells at his call screener on the air.
    High achiever, organized.
    Concerned with the future of his country and the Republican party.
    Loves popularity and the limelight if it serves a higher function.
    Ambitious, energetic.
    Rather shy and humble in public.
    Gracious and generous off the air.
    Has been a prescription drug addict.
    Stirs up controversy, "shock jock," to prove a point.
    Uses liberals' rhetorical tactics against them.
    Tries to anger the "opposition" in order to throw them off balance.
    Endomorphic body type.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post


    Rush Limbaugh does not use reason, he uses propaganda and exaggeration, kind of like Ann Coulter does. He's a shock-jock pundit and an Enneagram 6. If he's an ENTJ he uses more Se than Ni.

    He's actually not a high achiever, either. He's like some fat dude who went to community college.

    Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh do nothing to recommend NTJs to the public at large, it makes them all seem like exaggerating, narcissistic crazy people...or people who prey on the ignorant in order to make money.

    I'm betting on the latter.

    Rush Limbaugh uses REASON? Rush Limbaugh is a biased, hypocritical, blabber-mouth.

    He should win some kind of award for "dumbest ENTJ alive."
    Idk if Rush Limbaugh is ENTJ, but Bill O'Reilly is.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Idk if Rush Limbaugh is ENTJ, but Bill O'Reilly is.
    Bill O'Reilly, I do believe. Makes more sense.

    (He's a pundit too, but actually presents things in a more respectable Te manner, and also makes rational choices with his ethics, like supporting gun control and the environment while still maintaining a conservative leaning stance.)

    Limbaugh may just be more Se on camera.

    Early, early on I realized that sometimes when I went on biased rants I sounded like a female, liberal Rush Limbaugh...of course I was younger and more biased then, and he's possibly old enough to be my dad, and still does it. On national television and radio.

    I don't know if it's the Enneagram 6 thing, or that I'm seeing these people as like me, yet opposed to me. Which would confirm SFP 6 for me, that NTJ 6s make me think of a demonic, rejected version of myself or something.

    Or Rush is just some kind of loud-mouthed ESxP being mistaken for an ENTJ.

    He doesn't have the cunning of Ann Coulter. He even gets himself in trouble for opening his big mouth, calling people prostitutes and whores and losing his own monetary sponsorship.

    I can't say that was a smart move on his part.

  9. #9
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    O'Really?
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  10. #10
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    My ESFP mom likes Bill O'Reilly and she's a liberal. That's why I even started watching him at all.

    I think there's something about his careful use of Te that is more appealing. He's harsh and he's unapologetic about being conservative, but he at least acquiesces to things like the environment needing to be protected.

    It's always easier to listen to truly reasonable people who are relatively moderate in their political positions. He's pretty much the most respectable conservative political pundit, in my opinion. I'd take him over Rush, Ann, or Glenn Beck any day.

    Glenn Beck touched me in a bad place. GLENN BECK TOUCHED ME IN A BAD PLACE.

    Still, I've read the nasty liberal framings of entitled Bill O'Reilly, enough for me to gather that he's very much a self-congratulatory, money hoarding ENTJ stereotype.

    Rush Limbaugh on the other hand, does appear to be a big fat idiot.

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