User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 55

  1. #11
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 so/sp
    Posts
    2,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    My experience with self-typed ENTJs (I've never known any otherwise) is that they are more playful than ESTJs for some reason, they still seem bossy and self-assured, like a Te dom, but I find them altogether very to easy understand why they'd get mixed with ESxPs. I do think it is the tertiary Se.

    In fact if I were to describe the self-typed ENTJ that I've known the best IRL, I would say he was something like a cross between an INTJ and an ESTP.
    Interesting. I suppose the ENTJs I've met (assuming they are ENTJs) did have a sort of wry cheekiness about them. ESTJs can be smart-asses but perhaps it's more Ne silliness combined with Te gibes.

    And is it just me or do ENTJs seem to have more of a dark streak?

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    The ESTJs I've known have been like the ISTJs I've known in that you really get that vibe that they're constantly surveying the environment looking for something to fix. Or, when they're talking to you, you might feel like they're sizing you up. I've talked to people who say that they often feel judged around ESTJs and that's why they don't like them, i.e. that they're constantly worried about not measuring up to some unspoken standard.
    So I wasn't far off: ESTJs are fixers or reformers. This is certainly true of the ones I know. The can't stand imperfections when they see how easily they could be changed.

    But is more true for you, as a e1, or do you think it's common to ESTJs of other enneatypes?

    Whereas... I don't really get that vibe from my ENTJ friends, or at least, not to the same extent. When I've befriended ENTJs, I've definitely felt sized up, but in a more distant way -- kind of like the stereotype about INTJs silently judging everyone, but not feeling the need to step in when they're unimpressed. Thus: the ENTJs I know are more "chill", not nearly as likely to sweat the small stuff, and more likely to be able to sit back and enjoy the moment when they're feeling particularly indulgent (Se!). ESTJs, on the other hand, are more likely to be obsessive workaholics. ESTJs often have to rationalize their hobbies as being "productive", somehow, and I haven't met an ENTJ that felt the need to make those excuses. While ESTJs might seem like they have mood swings from work mode to silly mode (Ne!), my ENTJ friends seem much more consistent. Anecdotally, I'd guess that ESTJs are more likely to take themselves too seriously.
    Also interesting. So do you think their Te is somehow softened by Ni (or Se)? Do you think Te+Si creates more of a drive for order?

    That we mean well, and see ourselves as working for the greater good. There's a presumption that's pretty easy to get from type descriptions, that ESTJs are out for power for the sake of power, and authority for the sake of authority, and want to control everything just because they like being the boss, when, unless the ESTJ is unhealthy, I've found that to be completely untrue. A lot of ESTJs are motivated by their deep devotion to a cause, be it helping the poor or improving a company's productivity or what have you.
    Absolutely. All the ESTJs I know don't give a shit about power - well, at least the concept of it. They only seem to want it because they can't stand the incompetency of the people in charge. They primarily want to fix the problems and don't really get off on being important or bossing people around.

    Hermione Granger!

    ... *waits for the inevitable "HERMIONE IS AN ISTJ"*...


    I think of her as a ISTJ but I could see a valid argument for ESTJ. She seems to have equal amounts of Te and Si (ie. she doesn't have an overwhelming Si vibe), and I guess she's pretty forward for a ISTJ. When I think back to the first book/film she came across more ESTJ then...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    ENTJs, god bless us, are sort of messy people. As an ENTJ, I use Ni to create sort of a broad roadmap, but depend on Se to really make it happen. What that means is that even after I make a plan, I'm constantly filtering in new information to adjust it and troubleshoot as problems arise. I don't necessarily plan for contingencies as I'm fairly confident to handle problems in the moment.
    This seems true of the ENTJs I've met. I think "broad" is a good word to associate with them. They seem to spread themselves over a wide scope. I also find it interesting that you talk about troubleshooting as you go along. I suppose ESTJs prefer to anticipate things more and have systems in place ahead of time should certain issues arise.

    So what do you think of ENTJs as often being characterised as strategisers? Is it simply a more dynamic and emergent form of strategising, rather than an attempt to lock everything down beforehand?

    Meanwhile, I'm going to be obnoxious and quote myself from LeaT's thread on the aux function in ETJs:
    No, it's interesting and relevant. So you want to understand the fundamentals enough to develop a theory that you can then apply to relevant situations and respond accordingly? Do you do this by sifting through things in your head, though trial and error, or do you get it somehow from interaction with others?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #12
    Transient Faceless Beauty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    ENTj Ni
    Posts
    177

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Interesting. I suppose the ENTJs I've met (assuming they are ENTJs) did have a sort of wry cheekiness about them. ESTJs can be smart-asses but perhaps it's more Ne silliness combined with Te gibes.

    And is it just me or do ENTJs seem to have more of a dark streak?
    As for the bold, guilty as charged. Even when I'm actually joking around and not trying to be insulting, people get really offended and butthurt at my remarks. My mom especially, who happens to be ESTJ. As for the bit about ESTJs seeming more like smart-asses, maybe that's why I don't take a lot of my mom's forwardness or snide comments to heart.

    I'm not too sure about the last part, but at least among some of the ENTJ 8s I've seen this seems to be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    So I wasn't far off: ESTJs are fixers or reformers. This is certainly true of the ones I know. The can't stand imperfections when they see how easily they could be changed.

    But is more true for you, as a e1, or do you think it's common to ESTJs of other enneatypes?
    I'm not sure if anyone has met an ESTJ 3, but in the case of my mother, I think she does have this need to fix things. Especially when it pertains to building the ideal life that she wants for herself. For example, in her house hunt she was so picky that she had to walk away from several deals because the inspections revealed things that she didn't want to deal with. Also, she has this thing where she emphasizes style and aesthetics over function at times, and whenever she tries to ask me what I think of something I just shrug it off and say, "It all seems the same to me."

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Also interesting. So do you think their Te is somehow softened by Ni (or Se)? Do you think Te+Si creates more of a drive for order?
    I think hardness and softness would be more dependent upon enneagram, but I think that Ne kind of softens Te in ESTJ since it is a function of possibility generation, while Se kind of hardens Te in ENTJ since it is concrete and object focused. I like to think that Se anchors Te, while Ne allows Te to expand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Absolutely. All the ESTJs I know don't give a shit about power - well, at least the concept of it. They only seem to want it because they can't stand the incompetency of the people in charge. They primarily want to fix the problems and don't really get off on being important or bossing people around.
    I would have to agree. To be honest, I don't think most Te doms get off on having power. I think that ESTJs just like fixing problems to act against incompetence as you've said, while ENTJs like finding different ways to solve problems. Both are just very goal oriented, and if they have to move people around like pawns on a chessboard, they'll do it since it's essential to the objective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    This seems true of the ENTJs I've met. I think "broad" is a good word to associate with them. They seem to spread themselves over a wide scope. I also find it interesting that you talk about troubleshooting as you go along. I suppose ESTJs prefer to anticipate things more and have systems in place ahead of time should certain issues arise.
    I think ESTJs do like to anticipate ahead of time, and this is actually something that my mother does all the time. I find that she is less likely to make back-up plans just in case circumstances that she can't see coming into play now interfere with her plans later. She also has a harder time re-adjusting to set-backs than I do, since I can easily amend the original plan at hand because I left room for falling short or overdoing it in my original projection. It also helps that I rarely have things laid out in such intricate detail, so that when I arrive at a certain stage I can fill in whatever holes I had with knowledge I didn't have before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    So what do you think of ENTJs as often being characterised as strategisers? Is it simply a more dynamic and emergent form of strategising, rather than an attempt to lock everything down beforehand with contingency plans?
    I think it is a more dynamic form at least. Even though ESTJs can use Ne to come up with a wide range of possibilities for ways to approach a situation, Si filters out most alternatives and Te will use what seems to be the most reliable based on this. ENTJs on the other hand, use Se to gather new information as things move along, while Ni tries to work out a pattern for where things will go. This is probably why ENTJs are more prone to trouble-shooting. :P
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."-Roger Kint, The Usual Suspects
    "You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else."- Tyler Durden, Fight Club
    ENTJ, LIE-Ni, 9w8-6w5-3w2

  3. #13
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    8w9 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILI Ni
    Posts
    1,199

    Default

    I am going to go against the stream here and say that I don't think ENTJs and ESTJs are that much different at all. Why should they be? They are both Te dominants and thus they are the most oriented towards Te data in terms of cognition. Whatever quirks that may be different between them are probably caused more by say, enneagram differences than Ni versus Si. I think in particular, Ni and Si are going to operate in the sense that the ENTJ will be more "future-oriented" due to Ni perception and thus planning towards the future, whereas I think an ESTJ is going to be more focused on the concrete here and now. Ultimately the Ni and Si should rather just be seen as N and S I think. an ENTJ is more oriented towards the intuitive world and an ESTJ the sensation world.

    Like what really just seems to separate ExTJs as a whole is how mature they are and how much they have learn to accept/develop inferior Fi. An ExTJ is going to be a dick no matter if ENTJ or ESTJ if the inferior Fi is extremely rejected.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Youtuber | The Typologist Blog | Redditor | Message me!

  4. #14
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Idk if Rush Limbaugh is ENTJ, but Bill O'Reilly is.
    Why don't you know?
    http://personality-tests.eu/famous/famous-entj.php
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #15
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I am going to go against the stream here and say that I don't think ENTJs and ESTJs are that much different at all. Why should they be? They are both Te dominants and thus they are the most oriented towards Te data in terms of cognition. Whatever quirks that may be different between them are probably caused more by say, enneagram differences than Ni versus Si. I think in particular, Ni and Si are going to operate in the sense that the ENTJ will be more "future-oriented" due to Ni perception and thus planning towards the future, whereas I think an ESTJ is going to be more focused on the concrete here and now. Ultimately the Ni and Si should rather just be seen as N and S I think. an ENTJ is more oriented towards the intuitive world and an ESTJ the sensation world.
    Consider that ENTJ is an NT temperament, while ESTJ is an SJ temperament. The former is a Rational type (not the propaganda type, a notion which was based on stereotyping), while the latter is a Guardian.

    "ENTJs are natural born leaders. They live in a world of possibilities where they see all sorts challenges to be surmounted, and they want to be the ones responsible for surmounting them. They have a drive for leadership, which is well-served by their quickness to grasp complexities, their ability to absorb a large amount of impersonal information, and their quick and decisive judgments. They are "take charge" people."
    http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ENTJ.html

    "ESTJs live in a world of facts and concrete needs. They live in the present, with their eye constantly scanning their personal environment to make sure that everything is running smoothly and systematically. They honor traditions and laws, and have a clear set of standards and beliefs. They expect the same of others, and have no patience or understanding of individuals who do not value these systems. They value competence and efficiency, and like to see quick results for their efforts."
    http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ESTJ.html
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #16
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Socionics
    ENTj
    Posts
    5,908

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I am going to go against the stream here and say that I don't think ENTJs and ESTJs are that much different at all. Why should they be? They are both Te dominants and thus they are the most oriented towards Te data in terms of cognition. Whatever quirks that may be different between them are probably caused more by say, enneagram differences than Ni versus Si. I think in particular, Ni and Si are going to operate in the sense that the ENTJ will be more "future-oriented" due to Ni perception and thus planning towards the future, whereas I think an ESTJ is going to be more focused on the concrete here and now. Ultimately the Ni and Si should rather just be seen as N and S I think. an ENTJ is more oriented towards the intuitive world and an ESTJ the sensation world.
    .
    You understand that you're conceptually contradicting yourself multiple times?
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  7. #17
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    8w9 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILI Ni
    Posts
    1,199

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    You understand that you're conceptually contradicting yourself multiple times?
    How so? I don't think the auxiliary plays that large a role in a person's cognition as much as the dominant does. As a whole I still think ENTJs and ESTJs are going to be more similar to each other than different because they share the same dominant function and thus also outlook, on life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Consider that ENTJ is an NT temperament, while ESTJ is an SJ temperament. The former is a Rational type (not the propaganda type, a notion which was based on stereotyping), while the latter is a Guardian.

    "ENTJs are natural born leaders. They live in a world of possibilities where they see all sorts challenges to be surmounted, and they want to be the ones responsible for surmounting them. They have a drive for leadership, which is well-served by their quickness to grasp complexities, their ability to absorb a large amount of impersonal information, and their quick and decisive judgments. They are "take charge" people."
    http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ENTJ.html

    "ESTJs live in a world of facts and concrete needs. They live in the present, with their eye constantly scanning their personal environment to make sure that everything is running smoothly and systematically. They honor traditions and laws, and have a clear set of standards and beliefs. They expect the same of others, and have no patience or understanding of individuals who do not value these systems. They value competence and efficiency, and like to see quick results for their efforts."
    http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ESTJ.html
    I don't buy into Keirsey's temperaments theory. I don't think Keirsey describes cognition as much as he describes certain stereotype personality portraits. Any person could fit those descriptions without being Te dominant in terms of actual cognition.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Youtuber | The Typologist Blog | Redditor | Message me!

  8. #18
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Rush Limbaugh -
    NT - "As the knowledge-seeking temperament, Rationals trust reason implicitly. They rely on objective observations and factual analysis in any given situation. They seek a logical argument as a basis for action. As strategists, Rationals strive to gain as much information as possible, applying what they learn to develop long-term plans and the steps for achieving them. They are characterized by a tough-minded personal style, tending to pursue either power or understanding. They are often strong-willed, ambitious, intelligent, and self-determined. Subjective thoughts and emotion have no place in the decision-making process of a Rational. Driven to excel, they work hard to achieve their goals, and they do well where they can take control or work independently on a task."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_temperament

    Bill O'Reilly -
    "As the security-seeking temperament, Guardians are practical and frugal types. They "share certain core values, among them the belief in a strong work ethic, the need for people and institutions to be responsible, the importance of following the rules and of serving one's community."[2] Guardians value experience, and they seek a tangible return on their investments. Believing in common sense, they are not attracted to idle speculation. They are the glue of civilization, maintaining and nurturing institutions that have been established by the dint of hard work. They tend to be conventional and cooperative in their work, wanting to make sure everybody gets what they deserve, no more and no less. They follow the rules and conventions of their cohort or group and expect others to as well."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_temperament
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #19
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    How so? I don't think the auxiliary plays that large a role in a person's cognition as much as the dominant does. As a whole I still think ENTJs and ESTJs are going to be more similar to each other than different because they share the same dominant function and thus also outlook, on life.



    I don't buy into Keirsey's temperaments theory. I don't think Keirsey describes cognition as much as he describes certain stereotype personality portraits. Any person could fit those descriptions without being Te dominant in terms of actual cognition.
    The term "stereotype" applies to people, not to personality portraits.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #20
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,991

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    You understand that you're conceptually contradicting yourself multiple times?
    How exactly?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

Similar Threads

  1. [MBTItm] Distinct differences between ENTJ and ESTP
    By Baron in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 05-02-2016, 12:42 PM
  2. [MBTItm] Differences between ENTJ and ESTJ?
    By InfiniteIntrigue in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: 11-13-2009, 02:15 AM
  3. [ENFJ] What is the difference between ENTJ and ENFJ?
    By yenom in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 03-28-2009, 07:24 PM
  4. Replies: 16
    Last Post: 10-08-2007, 08:30 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO