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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    How does it operationalize it well in your opinion, then?
    Did you take Step 2? Do you know of a better assessment?

    A lot of what Jung describes is focused on the unconscious life of a person which is not easily self reported or assessed.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    but then for example please explain the discrepancy between how the MBTI understands I/E and how Jung understands I/E.
    Are you referring to what's described in books like Type Talk, in Gifts Differing or what you read on posts in an Internet forum? There was a lot of stuff published for a while there that attempted to dumb things down for the masses and contained erroneous or misleading information.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    How does it clarify and enrich?
    The book I mentioned was the first one that was published that explained the functions in concise and plain English. This led to other things. Last time I checked, it was out of print though you can find used ones.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    so he lied to them that he was in their camp so that he could help people under nazi control. quite noble act since he would most likely got himself killed if he got caught
    I know you would like to believe this as you are a devotee of Carl Jung, but Carl Jung, freely and willingly and without coercion, chose to serve Reich Marshal Göring. And as President the General Society for Psychotherapy in Germany he told every German psychotherapist to use Adolf Hitler's, "Mein Kampf", as a basic reference.

    This led to the exile, torure and death of millions including Jews like Sigmund Freud and his family.

    I can't help feeling that the price of being a devotee of Carl Jung is intellectual integrity.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I know you would like to believe this as you are a devotee of Carl Jung, but Carl Jung, freely and willingly and without coercion, chose to serve Reich Marshal Göring. And as President the General Society for Psychotherapy in Germany he told every German psychotherapist to use Adolf Hitler's, "Mein Kampf", as a basic reference.

    This led to the exile, torure and death of millions including Jews like Sigmund Freud and his family.

    I can't help feeling that the price of being a devotee of Carl Jung, is intellectual integrity.
    So you don't believe anything Jung said because you disagree with him morally?

    So are Russians currently living in the fiscal instability of the 1990's since Vladimir Putin is a questionable and probably immoral person (the answer is no, because he stabilized Russia financially, even if he's a sociopath)?

    While I understand your point, I can only relate it to philosophy; the only time that a person's personal morals convince me that their life philosophy was a load of crap...is when they claim to be a serious philosopher but build it on clearly biased ethical premises (see: Ayn Rand, Nietzsche).

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    so he lied to them that he was in their camp so that he could help people under nazi control. quite noble act since he would most likely got himself killed if he got caught
    Thank you for adding something pertinent to his seemingly endless diatribe against Jung.

  5. #55
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    Jung and Me

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    It doesn't answer the question how subjectivity affects your personal reasoning. I am questioning your personal ability to objectivity reason, as has already been clarified, that attacking Jung and claiming his theory is invalid because it's built on his subjective understanding of the world is a hypocritical statement since you are doing exactly the same thing. So again, how can we know that your reasoning process and understanding of Jung, the world, and thus also the psyche, is more objective than Jung's and simply not mere subjective conjecture?
    Well, we know because Carl Jung was psychotic, he willingly and freely and without coercion served the Third Reich, and he abused his female patients.

    Whereas I am not psychotic, I am a liberal democrat and an anti-fascist, and I have been a feminist ever since I read my fellow country-woman's book, "The Female Eunuch", by Germaine Greer in 1970.

  6. #56
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    Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    So you don't believe anything Jung said because you disagree with him morally?

    So are Russians currently living in the fiscal instability of the 1990's since Vladimir Putin is a questionable and probably immoral person (the answer is no, because he stabilized Russia financially, even if he's a sociopath)?

    While I understand your point, I can only relate it to philosophy; the only time that a person's personal morals convince me that their life philosophy was a load of crap...is when they claim to be a serious philosopher but build it on clearly biased ethical premises (see: Ayn Rand, Nietzsche).
    By their fruits, ye shall know them. And the fruit of Jung's meanderings is his support of the Third Reich, the murder of Jews like Freud, and the abuse of his female patients.

    This is rotten fruit so we might suspect his life philosophy is also rotten.

    But the problem we have here is cognitive dissonance. On one hand we are on a site devoted to Jung, but on the other we are discovering he was mad and evil.

    And so if the guru is mad and evil, are the devotees mad and evil?

    Or will the devotees continue to live in denial?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    By their fruits, ye shall know them. And the fruit of Jung's meanderings is his support of the Third Reich, the murder of Jews like Freud, and the abuse of his female patients.

    This is rotten fruit so we might suspect his life philosophy is also rotten.

    But the problem we have here is cognitive dissonance. On one hand we are on a site devoted to Jung, but on the other we are discovering he was mad and evil.

    And so if the guru is mad and evil, are the devotees mad and evil?

    Or will the devotees continue to live in denial?
    Whether or not he was a nazi sympathizer, he sure had some clear ideas about what made different people tick.

    Even an evil person can have great social intelligence and have a deep understanding of what makes people do what they do.

    I think his morals were questionable, but like, I'm only able to look at Nazi Germany in a historical light, because I think it's incorrect and maladjusted to attempt to judge people by modern-day, information-filled globalized society; people who lived in Nazi Germany lived in a much smaller nationalist society.

    Just as I can understand why some present-day Russians can be nationalists, I can understand why some Germans 100 years ago could be Nazis.

    I do find your stubbornly self-absorbed lack of empathy a little bizarre for an Fi dom, but it's because you're an INFP instead of an ISFP; and you tend to operate in an Fi/Si loop, so you have difficulty shifting morality into context.

    While I totally relate to your rabid sense of morality, as I have Fi too, I don't relate to your inability at ...what...45-60 years old?...to not be able to shift context into why people believe what they do and empathize with their specific circumstances, instead of some pre-determined "this always applies" blueprint.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Whether or not he was a nazi sympathizer, he sure had some clear ideas about what made different people tick.

    Even an evil person can have great social intelligence and have a deep understanding of what makes people do what they do.

    I think his morals were questionable, but like, I'm only able to look at Nazi Germany in a historical light, because I think it's incorrect and maladjusted to attempt to judge people by modern-day, information-filled globalized society; people who lived in Nazi Germany lived in a much smaller nationalist society.

    Just as I can understand why some present-day Russians can be nationalists, I can understand why some Germans 100 years ago could be Nazis.

    I do find your stubbornly self-absorbed lack of empathy a little bizarre for an Fi dom, but it's because you're an INFP instead of an ISFP; and you tend to operate in an Fi/Si loop, so you have difficulty shifting morality into context.

    While I totally relate to your rabid sense of morality, as I have Fi too, I don't relate to your inability at ...what...45-60 years old?...to not be able to shift context into why people believe what they do and empathize with their specific circumstances, instead of some pre-determined "this always applies" blueprint.
    Well, fascism and Jungism both lead to reification.

    But today the fascism we are faced with is ideological jihad. In the last few days we have had ideological jihad attack Boston, Toronto and the French Embassy.

    And just as Jungism reifies people, so ideological jihad also reifies people.

    And as a liberal democrat I am completely opposed to ideological violence.

    But before we kill people, we first turn them into things, we reify them.

    We reify them in Jungism and we reify them in ideological jihad.

    To oppose reification wherever we find it seems the only decent thing to do.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Well, fascism and Jungism both lead to reification.

    But today the fascism we are faced with is ideological jihad. In the last few days we have had ideological jihad attack Boston, Toronto and the French Embassy.

    And just as Jungism reifies people, so ideological jihad also reifies people.

    And as a liberal democrat I am completely opposed to ideological violence.

    But before we kill people, we first turn them into things, we reify them.

    We reify them in Jungism and we reify them in ideological jihad.

    To oppose reification wherever we find it seems the only decent thing to do.
    Given your ideological rigidity, I'm surprised. But at least you keep it peaceful and confined to opposing people on an MBTI forum, not unlike an atheist confronting people with pamphlets on Darwinism at the church door every Sunday.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Given your ideological rigidity, I'm surprised. But at least you keep it peaceful and confined to opposing people on an MBTI forum, not unlike an atheist confronting people with pamphlets on Darwinism at the church door every Sunday.
    Can you imagine me knocking on your door next Sunday with pamphlets warning you about Jung?

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