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  1. #31
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
    My point is, that people who are actually IxFP rarely test that way on the "MBTI".
    Evidence, please?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    @Victor So if Carl Jung's theory of the psyche is simply an exposition of his own psyche and merely presents its own subjective view of the psyche and reality, how do we know your understanding of Jung is objective and not subjective too, filtered through your own personal biases?
    Subjectivity is a given. Victor already knows this.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #32
    Senior Member madhatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Evidence, please?
    As I stated earlier in my novel to LeaT, it's my personal theory based on observation and experience of giving the test to people IRL, who after discussion and research settle on IxFP as their type. I didn't get that idea from any one source or article or study. The first time I noticed it is when I was trying to type my brother, and I have noticed it several times since then. It's a working theory at best.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Subjectivity is a given. Victor already knows this.
    Considering how he phrased his argument, no, I am not so sure he actually knows this or fully understands what subjectivity truly means.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  4. #34
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Considering how he phrased his argument, no, I am not so sure he actually knows this or fully understands what subjectivity truly means.
    The point being, everything is subjective.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #35
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    The point being, everything is subjective.
    That was my point exactly meaning that him clamoring that he is right because his understanding of Jung is objective (if he didn't think this way, he wouldn't assert that opinion to begin with) is just a logical contradiction and hypocritical.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  6. #36
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    Play, Science, the Suspension of Disbelief, and Inter-Subjectivity

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Considering how he phrased his argument, no, I am not so sure he actually knows this or fully understands what subjectivity truly means.
    I think the meaning of subjectivity is very interesting.

    It starts with play, for the purpose of play in children is to learn the difference between imagination and reality, or we might say, the difference between subjectivity and objectivity.

    It starts with play and moves onto the scientific method which is a way of determining what is fact and what is speculation, or we might say, what is subjective and what is objective.

    It starts with play, moves into the scientific method, and onto the suspension of disbelief which makes art, religion, poetry and movies possible.

    It starts with play, and moves onto the scientific method, the onto the suspension of disbelief, but doesn't stop there. From there we move into inter-subjectivity.

    Inter-subjectivity allows us to share our minds and makes us the most powerful animal on the planet.

  7. #37
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    Psychometrics

    Quote Originally Posted by StephMC View Post
    This is something I struggle with too. The cognitive dissonance experienced from trying to fit MBTI and Jungian type together is exhausting and frustrating. Sometimes I wonder if it has reached a point where it may be better to divorce Jungian typology completely from MBTI, and make something new. To what? Who knows.
    Well, we do know. And if you are prepared to pay Amazon.com $10 for "Psychometric Tests For Dummies", by Liam Healy, you will know too.

    Or perhaps you might prefer to download, "Psychometric Tests for Dummies", by clicking on http://vinylvinter.net/psychometric-...mmies-pdf.html

  8. #38
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I see a lot of confusion on this site about the differences between the MBTI and Jung. The reason I'm making this thread is because I think we need to discuss the differences between what an MBTI type is and what a Jungian type is which is not the same thing.
    This is wrong. They should not be thought of as separate things. Please do read more books. I think it will help to build out your perspectives

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post

    Thus, a lot of confusion arises from the fact that the MBTI system does not attempt to fully utilize the cognitive function theory Jung laid out, but instead tries to peg people into types based on perceived function output. Therefore, a person who appears unemotional must be a thinker because their ego is oriented more towards thinking and rejects feeling as an evaluative process. This might sound good in theory but utterly fails in actuality, since being emotional or not has little to do with whether we are thinkers or feelers. It shows a great misunderstanding of Jung's concept of type and how the functions operate within the psyche.
    It's a method to evaluate someone's type - specifically Jungian type. They attempted to operationalize a solution that would allow you to assess your type and it works pretty well. Given the rigor the Step II assessment has along with the assistance of a professional for evaluation, I'd say it's more than a bit better than any of the free tests that I am aware of. Nardi's isn't really very good either. Some of the stuff behind the system (i.e. the functions you so dearly are interested in) are clearly described in the MBTI Step II manual and serve as the foundation for the system. They were always there behind the scenes but people didn't know they were there. Functions got re-popularized when this came out

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/188...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    It clarifies and enriches. It doesn't create a new system because the MBTI was completely based on it already. An assessment methodology does not aways tie so directly to the underlying theory. All it needs to do is work. Who cares if they use facets. MBTI Step II should give you your "jungian" type if you want to call it that.

    Quote Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
    To be blunt, I think that the MBTI tests are complete rubbish when it comes to measuring Fi. Usually the "F" on the tests is more indicative of Fe than Fi.
    I have noticed that. Not all though

    Try this - it's got the best stuff I've seen on Fi vs Fe

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/088...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    MBTI attempts to measure jungian type, so if your jungian type is FiNe, that makes you MBTI INFP regardless of what results you get from some crappy tests on internets or from official MBTI test(even the official test is just a way to suggest a type for you, not to determine your type and type profiles are just stereotypical crap you need to take with a grain of salt).
    Yes
    Last edited by highlander; 04-25-2013 at 03:12 PM.

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  9. #39
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    In 1913 Carl Jung had failed his psychoanalysis with Sigmund Freud and so failed to become a psychoanalyst. As a result Carl Jung retreated into psychosis and began his Red Book.

    The Red Book revealed Carl Jung's psychosis, so the Red book was locked in a safe for seventy nine years to hide his psychosis from his devotees.
    he didnt fail his psychoanalysis with freud. what happened was that jung saw that there were other archetypal complexes than just oedipus and electra complexes and thus thought that freuds sexual theory was limited(as we have found out the sexual theory was highly limited and retarded). because of this freud got mad and cut all ties to jung and tried to sabotage his career, because freud saw jung as an enemy to his ideas.

    jung didnt fail to become a psychoanalyst, he actually held the highest position of a chairman in psychoanalytical society before their breakup.

    whether or not what jung experienced was a psychosis or not is debatable, confrontation with the unconscious is more suitable way of saying what happened, because jung wasnt delusional in a way characteristic to a psychosis. also freud wasnt the only influence to this. it was the beginning of the first world war, which jung had anticipated and which happens to fall in the jungs idea of the collective shadow awakening(you can probably imagine a bit what jung must had felt when something of a pure evil he had anticipated coming to alive in a way that he theorized), this also played a big part. also there were aspects in it which could had been characterized as a midlife crisis. not to mention that jung wasnt all that happy with the persona which the society forced upon him etc etc.

    redbook was in a bank vault from 1984 to 2007, according to my math thats less than 79 years. also it was read by many before that, its just that it wasnt published since jungs family didnt know what to do with it because jung didnt leave any instructions on what to do with it.

    ps. nice biased simplification you got going on there lol
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    ps. nice biased simplification you got going on there lol
    During the reign of the Third Reich, Carl Gustav Jung assumed the Presidency of the General Society for Psychotherapy in Germany.

    Jung's support of the Nazis could not be clearer, and explains why the crypto-fascists find him so fascinating, even to the point of quoting him in their signature.

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