Emotional Manipulation and Type

[Thalassa]

If we were to oversimplify, people would probably say FJs, and ExFPs make the best emotional manipulators? Right? Or that it's somehow related to Fe and Pe?

Would it be possible for an IxTJ to be a master manipulator of women's emotions? That doesn't seem right, does it?

It actually seems out of place and very wrong, something someone would expect from an ExFJ or maybe an ESTP?

Feel free to talk at length about emotional manipulation, because I am at a bit of a loss here as to how someone so uncomfortable with his own feelings, and who has such trouble expressing his deepest emotions, would be relatively proficient at manipulating others at will?

WHAT IS THAT?

Someone help me out here, no jokes please.

And no, the person is not a sociopath, but could be a narcissist.

 

[WALMART]

I've been thinking about this, that people can be so proficient at metabolizing their own feelings they are also capable of turning the power outwards.

My thoughts haven't run exactly congruent to yours, so I don't have all that much to say about it, except that it's a fascinating subject.

I'd probably place weak Fe users in the upper echelons for that of which you speak.

 

[Thalassa]

I've been thinking about this, that people can be so proficient at metabolizing their own feelings they are also capable of turning the power outwards.

My thoughts haven't run exactly congruent to yours, so I don't have all that much to say about it, except that it's a fascinating subject.

I'd probably place weak Fe users in the upper echelons for that of which you speak.

Discomfort with overt display of emotion, but need to have others shine it upon him. An exaggerated "cold" trait, like taking pride in having emotional walls or showing less emotion. But clearly needing a great deal of attention and companionship, and doing sort of magical things in order to obtain it, in very manipulative and indirect ways, and even more amazingly, appearing to have the same or similar affect upon multiple individuals.

And not necessarily focused on sex; there's a sexual element to it, but it's far far more emotional, the need this person attempts to fulfill and the ways they go about getting them are more emotional than sexual, I'm not really talking about a player or a man whore; more of an emotional whore, though, or someone seeking narcissistic supply at any cost, until the "source" gets too close to his actual underlying feelings.

I thought tertiary Fi was cut and dried for this person for varying reasons, and he and others agreed, but how would someone with tertiary Fi be able to quietly move people to kinda sorta give him what he needs, in the way he needs it.

It just doesn't make sense to me how someone so uncomfortable with his own feelings deals so well in emotional currency, but in a distorted and rather black way; and the thing is that it hurts him, on some level it's hurting him to do it, but he keeps doing it.

Over and over again.

And I didn't realize JUST how good he was at it until today, though I knew he plays a lot of head games.

 

[Amargith]

He sounds lonely, terrified, stuck and (self-)depraved of love, tbh. Somewhere along the line he figured out how to use subtle vulnerability cues to tap into the empathy of others to get what he needs without having to reciprocate so he can save face if things go south instead of face the fear of emotional rejection he apparently has been burned by so much that he outright avoids it.

He should learn how to a) take rejection not so personally and b) how to balance reciprocation in a way that isnt coming on to strong, doesn't suck him in completely and all at once emotionally speaking, and c) is appropriate to the situation, in order to feel truly emotionally fulfilled.

Compare it to Voldemort: to stay alive he drinks unicorn blood, but that life becomes a half life.

He will never feel fully fulfilled this way, but it will quench his immediate needs if only for a moment. And that means that multiple targets give him 'more' while staying safe.


The short, tl;dr-version: trust issues+ being human= life half lived.


I'd say all types are capable of this as it is a matter of only accessing a part of the F function and ignoring all the rest there is to that function. Which makes for a highly unbalanced use. F types will discover this part more easily, and can be really adept at exploiting this little loophole. It's a quick fix and easy road to take when you are hurting and need validation.

But then, depending on their environment and past issues, they *should* be able to access the rest of it, as well and do the work, considering their preference. We all know F types however who seem to be stuck in a vicious loop; who are skilled at their preferences but haven't escaped their unhealthy behaviors yet, either coz those behaviors continue to serve them well, or because they are afraid of something.

T types, despite their penchant for logic, still *are* human and do have the same human needs we all do: to be loved, appreciated, valued, etc. If they happen to figure out that they attract a certain type of people by emphasising a particular part of their personality, they might put that to use to serve those needs, I guess. Especially if they have been traumatised in the past when they tried getting those needs served in the 'conventional way'

 

[Stanton Moore]

My brother, who is ESTP, is a master of manipulation. He takes pride in it. He's read books about sales and mastered the techniques. I have to remain on guard to this, because he will use it against me.

 

[INTP]

Would it be possible for an IxTJ to be a master manipulator of women's emotions? That doesn't seem right, does it?

it does, but only if they have learned how to do that and learned that it gives them desirable results. Te is about getting the desirable results by manipulating external world after all, and by manipulation i dont only mean emotional manipulation, but physical which is something that comes more naturally from Te users. if hurt,(especially tert/inferior) Fi is pretty good at finding justification to all sorts of immoral things, like emotional manipulation. hitler would be a good extreme example of this, really good at emotional manipulation and finding some stupid justification for such horrible things.

 

[violet_crown]

I think all types have their respective brand of manipulation, and it's not really a matter of "most" or "least". There are no innocents.

 

[RaptorWizard]

If we were to oversimplify, people would probably say FJs, and ExFPs make the best emotional manipulators? Right? Or that it's somehow related to Fe and Pe?

Would it be possible for an IxTJ to be a master manipulator of women's emotions? That doesn't seem right, does it?

It actually seems out of place and very wrong, something someone would expect from an ExFJ or maybe an ESTP?

Feel free to talk at length about emotional manipulation, because I am at a bit of a loss here as to how someone so uncomfortable with his own feelings, and who has such trouble expressing his deepest emotions, would be relatively proficient at manipulating others at will?

WHAT IS THAT?

Someone help me out here, no jokes please.

And no, the person is not a sociopath, but could be a narcissist.

Speed agrees in the Celebritytypes/Pastebin=Mbti/Enneagram combination of typings. thread.

She doesn't simply say that she's good at manipulating people (and ESTP are the best at doing this anyway), she also says that she has no problem putting things over on people, which is the proof that she is a Thinker. A Feeler, an INFJ for exemple would place her success mainly on a sense of ethic. See the difference with a true NFJ like Emma Stone, for example. Putting things over on people, is a difficult thing for a Feeler, not something done spontaneously and naturally, but for an ESTP like Meryl S, it's easy, and she spontaneously and naturally do it.

Sorry, I know INFJ like the idea of Meryl Streep being an INFJ, because it's very flattering for their ego, but it's not the case.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I've known INTJs who pride themselves on their ability to manipulate to varying degrees. Some people manipulate from a calculated distance and others are so wrapped up in their feelings that their manipulation is connected to personal feelings of fear and desperation.

Even when people are out of touch with their emotions, all that information is still present in their subconscious minds. If I were to oversimplify based on my understanding of MBTI and observation, I would tend to say that NTs, and INTJs in particular, are probably the most able to achieve subtle, calculated manipulation. Having Te and Fi makes it possible to understand the really personal realm, but to be able to create systems for managing it or manipulating it. I've been manipulated by NTs many times, although it wasn't malicious.

I've dealt with FJ manipulation and it tends to be really direct and overbearing. It is not subtle at all.

 

[Nicodemus]

[...] I am at a bit of a loss here as to how someone so uncomfortable with his own feelings, and who has such trouble expressing his deepest emotions, would be relatively proficient at manipulating others at will?

It is not necessary to feel one's own feelings to figure out what input someone else's emotional machinery needs in order to produce a desired output. Observation is enough.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Feel free to talk at length about emotional manipulation, because I am at a bit of a loss here as to how someone so uncomfortable with his own feelings, and who has such trouble expressing his deepest emotions, would be relatively proficient at manipulating others at will?

WHAT IS THAT?

I think there's a direct relationship: the less comfortable someone is with their own feelings --> the more they will need to rely on manipulation (distorting the truth- to themselves as well as others) to avoid those feelings. When distorting the truth becomes a matter of survival- as the sole means of getting one's needs met- it's amazing how good people can become at it, how much energy they put into controlling the reactions/emotions of others to sate their own feelings without even really realizing it's going on. And this is equally true of all people, regardless of what type they are.

Though it does seem to me that usually TJs' manipulation is clumsier. I'm personally inclined to vote ENTP as most manipulative (in the sense that I think they're most proficient at it when they resort to it).

 

[KDude]

I think I'm completely different than how some ETPs use emotional appeals. When I've fallen back on that, it's when I'm really pissed off and jaded. I've gotten people riled up enough to protest something (like quit a job), but it's very brief. And I don't think I was manipulative. Even if I had some self-interest there. My anger is real, if a bit out of control.

 

[Cellmold]

It is not necessary to feel one's own feelings to figure out what input someone else's emotional machinery needs in order to produce a desired output. Observation is enough.

This is true. Study of an individual usually produces the information for pushing in the right places for a certain reaction.

This goes for all of course, even the button pressers, and especially myself as I am easily led and manipulated.

 

[Thalassa]

I've known INTJs who pride themselves on their ability to manipulate to varying degrees. Some people manipulate from a calculated distance and others are so wrapped up in their feelings that their manipulation is connected to personal feelings of fear and desperation.

Even when people are out of touch with their emotions, all that information is still present in their subconscious minds. If I were to oversimplify based on my understanding of MBTI and observation, I would tend to say that NTs, and INTJs in particular, are probably the most able to achieve subtle, calculated manipulation. Having Te and Fi makes it possible to understand the really personal realm, but to be able to create systems for managing it or manipulating it. I've been manipulated by NTs many times, although it wasn't malicious.

I've dealt with FJ manipulation and it tends to be really direct and overbearing. It is not subtle at all.

It's indirect, constant, and needy. And when it begins to look TOO needy, I believe he finds another target.

And he mainly clings to targets which ridicule and reject him. He claims he's been dumped by every serious gf he's had (thus the rejection thing) but I believe that he intentionally (though perhaps subconsciously) perpetuates it through extreme spurts of coldness and neediness; that is, behaving vulnerably with someone who would give openly, but then shutting down and becoming cold so they don't get too close in the long run; or paradoxically, acting too possessive toward a woman who wouldn't give openly, so she also rejects him, albeit for a different reason....but I think his internal movtive is ALWAYS, ALWAYS not to let people get too close....giving exactly what he knows they'll respond to in the beginning, and to keep them hooked, but when anyone gets too close to them, doing the exact OPPOSITE of what that personality would value, i.e. being cold to a giver, or being possessive toward a person who valued their autonomy.

It's really, really sad. I actually know about his childhood and his relationship with his mother and his father, and I think this is a huge part of the problem (just like it is with anyone).

He wanted my attention and companionship constantly until I told him I was behaving the way I was ...because he kept seeking me and reaching out to me. And when I actually named that he was reaching out to me, he shut down on me completely, like he was appalled to be recognized as doing such an embarrassing thing.

I think [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7595]INTP[/MENTION] are exactly right.

[MENTION=15371]RaptorWizard[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6466]Stanton Moore[/MENTION]

he's definitely not an ESTP

I've been chalking this up to "narcissists eat empathy." They desperately need love and approval, but unlike the histrionic personality, they eat other people's empathy like pac-man.

 

[Thalassa]

I think all types have their respective brand of manipulation, and it's not really a matter of "most" or "least". There are no innocents.

Oh yeah, I know any type can be manipulative, healthy or unhealthy, but I was curious about this ability to maneuver people, but I think [MENTION=7595]INTP[/MENTION] may be right that it's cold Te maneuvering justified by a very sad hurt tertiary Fi.

He just learned this as a strategy to get what he needs as a person, and maybe it's why it's all or nothing with him; an Fe type would probably mature by his age in this department, like [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] alluded to; I think by 30 or so an F type, unless SEVERELY mentally ill (*and I don't think he is, though quite neurotic), would reason out why it's self-destructive (and not just hurtful to others) to keep doing it.

Like he can't figure out how to stop yet.

 

[Chaotic Harmony]

I can be pretty manipulative of the people I know best... Not sure if that's my Fi and know just what those close to me are feeling or how to invoke certain emotions in them. That being said... I'd almost wonder if an N would be better at manipulation than an S? Like I said, I can manipulate those close to me, but not someone that I'm "okay" friends with or acquaintances with. Overall, I'm not sure... that's just my two cents on the topic.

 

[Thalassa]

I can be pretty manipulative of the people I know best... Not sure if that's my Fi and know just what those close to me are feeling or how to invoke certain emotions in them. That being said... I'd almost wonder if an N would be better at manipulation than an S? Like I said, I can manipulate those close to me, but not someone that I'm "okay" friends with or acquaintances with. Overall, I'm not sure... that's just my two cents on the topic.

Oh I can be manipulative, they say all people are manipulative in some way because we all need and want things, but there's a difference between being manipulative sometimes, and ...just like...constructing entire systems (??) for getting attention and smacking people away. If wasn't so sick and fucked up, I would almost admire his intelligent usage of strategy.

People have asked me "well, given all this info, why would you still want anything to do with him?" and I think because I want to be the person who figures him out and "gets in." Like really. I think he's imagined he's let other people in, but I don't think so, because they always got rid of him and wouldn't take him back.

And there in lies my problem, probably. I have a real problem with that, when I get close to someone it's almost like I want to figure out their brain like it's a puzzle, and take up residence, and move in there. I had a similar problem with my ESFJ ex, but that was a lot worse, he actually had temper tantrums and I'd never put up with or be fascinated by that again, that's too unhealthy.

I am apparently one codependent piece of fuck.

 

[Nicki]

All types are capable of being manipulative.

 

[Chaotic Harmony]

Oh I can be manipulative, they say all people are manipulative in some way because we all need and want things, but there's a difference between being manipulative sometimes, and ...just like...constructing entire systems (??) for getting attention and smacking people away. If wasn't so sick and fucked up, I would almost admire his intelligent usage of strategy.

People have asked me "well, given all this info, why would you still want anything to do with him?" and I think because I want to be the person who figures him out and "gets in." Like really. I think he's imagined he's let other people in, but I don't think so, because they always got rid of him and wouldn't take him back.

And there in lies my problem, probably. I have a real problem with that, when I get close to someone it's almost like I want to figure out their brain like it's a puzzle, and take up residence, and move in there. I had a similar problem with my ESFJ ex, but that was a lot worse, he actually had temper tantrums and I'd never put up with or be fascinated by that again, that's too unhealthy.

I am apparently one codependent piece of fuck.

Maybe you're just determined. I'm too lazy to pick people apart.

 

[Thalassa]

Maybe you're just determined. I'm too lazy to pick people apart.

lol I took that PUA thing and I'm an Investor...I seem like a Tester, but that's just because I'm sexually a Justifier, emotionally I am investor.

I am here to fix your plumbing, and you will NEVER EVER FORGET ME BECAUSE OF IT. All your soul be belonging to us.

Issues, I have lots of them, myself.

I just think, though, that unconditional love is being able to love someone even when you know their flaws.

One of my ENTP guy friends once said, "Love is just knowing what kind of fucked up you can deal with." I think that statement has great wisdom.

On the other hand, trying to get someone to change is futile, and this guy may act like this until he's 40, I can't make him be different.

Intellectually I know it's better to walk away, no matter how I feel emotionally (and it's really hard for me to get rid of these feelings) and I know that's why all of his gf's leave him in the end.