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  1. #11
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post

    Feel free to talk at length about emotional manipulation, because I am at a bit of a loss here as to how someone so uncomfortable with his own feelings, and who has such trouble expressing his deepest emotions, would be relatively proficient at manipulating others at will?

    WHAT IS THAT?
    I think there's a direct relationship: the less comfortable someone is with their own feelings --> the more they will need to rely on manipulation (distorting the truth- to themselves as well as others) to avoid those feelings. When distorting the truth becomes a matter of survival- as the sole means of getting one's needs met- it's amazing how good people can become at it, how much energy they put into controlling the reactions/emotions of others to sate their own feelings without even really realizing it's going on. And this is equally true of all people, regardless of what type they are.

    Though it does seem to me that usually TJs' manipulation is clumsier. I'm personally inclined to vote ENTP as most manipulative (in the sense that I think they're most proficient at it when they resort to it).
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  2. #12
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I think I'm completely different than how some ETPs use emotional appeals. When I've fallen back on that, it's when I'm really pissed off and jaded. I've gotten people riled up enough to protest something (like quit a job), but it's very brief. And I don't think I was manipulative. Even if I had some self-interest there. My anger is real, if a bit out of control.

  3. #13
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    It is not necessary to feel one's own feelings to figure out what input someone else's emotional machinery needs in order to produce a desired output. Observation is enough.
    This is true. Study of an individual usually produces the information for pushing in the right places for a certain reaction.

    This goes for all of course, even the button pressers, and especially myself as I am easily led and manipulated.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I've known INTJs who pride themselves on their ability to manipulate to varying degrees. Some people manipulate from a calculated distance and others are so wrapped up in their feelings that their manipulation is connected to personal feelings of fear and desperation.

    Even when people are out of touch with their emotions, all that information is still present in their subconscious minds. If I were to oversimplify based on my understanding of MBTI and observation, I would tend to say that NTs, and INTJs in particular, are probably the most able to achieve subtle, calculated manipulation. Having Te and Fi makes it possible to understand the really personal realm, but to be able to create systems for managing it or manipulating it. I've been manipulated by NTs many times, although it wasn't malicious.

    I've dealt with FJ manipulation and it tends to be really direct and overbearing. It is not subtle at all.
    It's indirect, constant, and needy. And when it begins to look TOO needy, I believe he finds another target.

    And he mainly clings to targets which ridicule and reject him. He claims he's been dumped by every serious gf he's had (thus the rejection thing) but I believe that he intentionally (though perhaps subconsciously) perpetuates it through extreme spurts of coldness and neediness; that is, behaving vulnerably with someone who would give openly, but then shutting down and becoming cold so they don't get too close in the long run; or paradoxically, acting too possessive toward a woman who wouldn't give openly, so she also rejects him, albeit for a different reason....but I think his internal movtive is ALWAYS, ALWAYS not to let people get too close....giving exactly what he knows they'll respond to in the beginning, and to keep them hooked, but when anyone gets too close to them, doing the exact OPPOSITE of what that personality would value, i.e. being cold to a giver, or being possessive toward a person who valued their autonomy.

    It's really, really sad. I actually know about his childhood and his relationship with his mother and his father, and I think this is a huge part of the problem (just like it is with anyone).

    He wanted my attention and companionship constantly until I told him I was behaving the way I was ...because he kept seeking me and reaching out to me. And when I actually named that he was reaching out to me, he shut down on me completely, like he was appalled to be recognized as doing such an embarrassing thing.

    I think @Amargith and @INTP are exactly right.

    @RaptorWizard and @Stanton Moore

    he's definitely not an ESTP

    I've been chalking this up to "narcissists eat empathy." They desperately need love and approval, but unlike the histrionic personality, they eat other people's empathy like pac-man.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    I think all types have their respective brand of manipulation, and it's not really a matter of "most" or "least". There are no innocents.
    Oh yeah, I know any type can be manipulative, healthy or unhealthy, but I was curious about this ability to maneuver people, but I think @INTP may be right that it's cold Te maneuvering justified by a very sad hurt tertiary Fi.

    He just learned this as a strategy to get what he needs as a person, and maybe it's why it's all or nothing with him; an Fe type would probably mature by his age in this department, like @Amargith alluded to; I think by 30 or so an F type, unless SEVERELY mentally ill (*and I don't think he is, though quite neurotic), would reason out why it's self-destructive (and not just hurtful to others) to keep doing it.

    Like he can't figure out how to stop yet.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Chaotic Harmony's Avatar
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    I can be pretty manipulative of the people I know best... Not sure if that's my Fi and know just what those close to me are feeling or how to invoke certain emotions in them. That being said... I'd almost wonder if an N would be better at manipulation than an S? Like I said, I can manipulate those close to me, but not someone that I'm "okay" friends with or acquaintances with. Overall, I'm not sure... that's just my two cents on the topic.


  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic Harmony View Post
    I can be pretty manipulative of the people I know best... Not sure if that's my Fi and know just what those close to me are feeling or how to invoke certain emotions in them. That being said... I'd almost wonder if an N would be better at manipulation than an S? Like I said, I can manipulate those close to me, but not someone that I'm "okay" friends with or acquaintances with. Overall, I'm not sure... that's just my two cents on the topic.
    Oh I can be manipulative, they say all people are manipulative in some way because we all need and want things, but there's a difference between being manipulative sometimes, and ...just like...constructing entire systems (??) for getting attention and smacking people away. If wasn't so sick and fucked up, I would almost admire his intelligent usage of strategy.

    People have asked me "well, given all this info, why would you still want anything to do with him?" and I think because I want to be the person who figures him out and "gets in." Like really. I think he's imagined he's let other people in, but I don't think so, because they always got rid of him and wouldn't take him back.

    And there in lies my problem, probably. I have a real problem with that, when I get close to someone it's almost like I want to figure out their brain like it's a puzzle, and take up residence, and move in there. I had a similar problem with my ESFJ ex, but that was a lot worse, he actually had temper tantrums and I'd never put up with or be fascinated by that again, that's too unhealthy.

    I am apparently one codependent piece of fuck.

  8. #18
    Retired Nicki's Avatar
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    All types are capable of being manipulative.
    I really like cats and food.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Chaotic Harmony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Oh I can be manipulative, they say all people are manipulative in some way because we all need and want things, but there's a difference between being manipulative sometimes, and ...just like...constructing entire systems (??) for getting attention and smacking people away. If wasn't so sick and fucked up, I would almost admire his intelligent usage of strategy.

    People have asked me "well, given all this info, why would you still want anything to do with him?" and I think because I want to be the person who figures him out and "gets in." Like really. I think he's imagined he's let other people in, but I don't think so, because they always got rid of him and wouldn't take him back.

    And there in lies my problem, probably. I have a real problem with that, when I get close to someone it's almost like I want to figure out their brain like it's a puzzle, and take up residence, and move in there. I had a similar problem with my ESFJ ex, but that was a lot worse, he actually had temper tantrums and I'd never put up with or be fascinated by that again, that's too unhealthy.

    I am apparently one codependent piece of fuck.
    Maybe you're just determined. I'm too lazy to pick people apart.


  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic Harmony View Post
    Maybe you're just determined. I'm too lazy to pick people apart.
    lol I took that PUA thing and I'm an Investor...I seem like a Tester, but that's just because I'm sexually a Justifier, emotionally I am investor.

    I am here to fix your plumbing, and you will NEVER EVER FORGET ME BECAUSE OF IT. All your soul be belonging to us.

    Issues, I have lots of them, myself.

    I just think, though, that unconditional love is being able to love someone even when you know their flaws.

    One of my ENTP guy friends once said, "Love is just knowing what kind of fucked up you can deal with." I think that statement has great wisdom.

    On the other hand, trying to get someone to change is futile, and this guy may act like this until he's 40, I can't make him be different.

    Intellectually I know it's better to walk away, no matter how I feel emotionally (and it's really hard for me to get rid of these feelings) and I know that's why all of his gf's leave him in the end.

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