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The Ti problem solving process vs. the Te problem solving process.

Avocado

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I guess. The bottom line is they aren't like having an ISTJ boss at a company who breaks out the procedural manual every time you break a rule and tells you what you did was breaking ethical code number 556 section A or whatever. lol

I despise those. Really, its annoying...
 

greenfairy

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I guess. The bottom line is they aren't like having an ISTJ boss at a company who breaks out the procedural manual every time you break a rule and tells you what you did was breaking ethical code number 556 section A or whatever. lol
No, definitely not.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Well it's true I don't mean it in the sense of SJ respect for authority. I mean it in an intellectual sense. INTJ's have their own opinions, but it's more Ni modifying the Te information than the other way around; whereas in NTP's Ti modifies Ne information.

Sometimes, it seems to me like INTJs take Te bits of data and use Ni to connect them and derive meaning.

I feel like with me, I do the opposite. I take Ne bits of data and connect them and derive meaning with Ti.

Would that be your observation?
 

greenfairy

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Sometimes, it seems to me like INTJs take Te bits of data and use Ni to connect them and derive meaning.

I feel like with me, I do the opposite. I take Ne bits of data and connect them and derive meaning with Ti.

Would that be your observation?
Yes.

Extroverted functions are objective (even Fe) and work with impersonal factors. Fe is less so than Te, but it still operates with collective subjectivity- so is essentially objective with regards to the self. The Fe user will rely on an introverted function, either Ni or Si in order to personalize it. So both Fe and Te are authoritative in this way, because they work with collective standards.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Yes.

Extroverted functions are objective (even Fe) and work with impersonal factors. Fe is less so than Te, but it still operates with collective subjectivity- so is essentially objective with regards to the self. The Fe user will rely on an introverted function, either Ni or Si in order to personalize it. So both Fe and Te are authoritative in this way, because they work with collective standards.

Hmm.. I can't figure out what that has to do with why some INTJs seem to be personally offended by being questioned. It's very odd... they'll say something with a lot of confidence, not really explain themselves, and then kind of get annoyed when the confidence is not enough to sway people. Introverted feeling, perhaps?

From what I remember of Jung, Jung stressed the collective standards part, as if to say that the fact that Extraverted Thinking is not necessarily more true than Introverted Thinking. I remember him suggesting that Extraverted Thinking can accept something as true simply because so many people agree on it. Not so with Ti.
 

five sounds

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Yes.

Extroverted functions are objective (even Fe) and work with impersonal factors. Fe is less so than Te, but it still operates with collective subjectivity- so is essentially objective with regards to the self. The Fe user will rely on an introverted function, either Ni or Si in order to personalize it. So both Fe and Te are authoritative in this way, because they work with collective standards.

Would that mean that Te might use Fi in the same way? Or how would it work for an ENFP?
 

greenfairy

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Hmm.. I can't figure out what that has to do with why some INTJs seem to be personally offended by being questioned. It's very odd... they'll say something with a lot of confidence, not really explain themselves, and then kind of get annoyed when the confidence is not enough to sway people. Introverted feeling, perhaps?
Yeah, it's an odd phenomenon, not to mention very frustrating. But I can tell you as someone with strong Ni if not an Ni dom that the function has a lot to do with it; Ni is the most abstract function by far. Ni can't really explain itself, because it doesn't operate with language- it reads energy patterns. Couple this with Te which operates on objective measurable standards and results, and the collective nature begins to make the INTJ feel as if s/he should be able to explain it; add in Fi and the INTJ's personal identity and ego is threatened. At least, this is my impression of the psychology of the situation as manifested in the functions.
From what I remember of Jung, Jung stressed the collective standards part, as if to say that the fact that Extraverted Thinking is not necessarily more true than Introverted Thinking. I remember him suggesting that Extraverted Thinking can accept something as true simply because so many people agree on it. Not so with Ti.
Right. I haven't actually read Jung, but I tend to come to the same conclusions.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Yeah, it's an odd phenomenon, not to mention very frustrating. But I can tell you as someone with strong Ni if not an Ni dom that the function has a lot to do with it; Ni is the most abstract function by far. Ni can't really explain itself, because it doesn't operate with language- it reads energy patterns. Couple this with Te which operates on objective measurable standards and results, and the collective nature begins to make the INTJ feel as if s/he should be able to explain it; add in Fi and the INTJ's personal identity and ego is threatened. At least, this is my impression of the psychology of the situation as manifested in the functions.

I speculate that weak Te has a lot to do with it, because some INTJs are better at this than others. Basically, they feel frustrated because they can't explain because the Te isn't strong enough.

Sometimes I get frustrated when I feel like me Ne isn't strong enough. I want to have some new creative idea, and it just doesn't come.

Maybe I'm sidetracking things, but why do you think Ni is more abstract than Fi?
Right. I haven't actually read Jung, but I tend to come to the same conclusions.

It's tricky, because in this context, subjective and objective don't actually mean what people think it means. Really, the only thing it means is internal vs. external.
 

greenfairy

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Would that mean that Te might use Fi in the same way? Or how would it work for an ENFP?
Yeah, I think so. Ne provides objective data, Fi personalizes it (and this personal perspective is emphasized with someone Fi aux/dom), and then Te executes the Fi decision or provides a reality check. Fi keeps Te in check by reminding the user of her or his feelings and social concerns, and Te keeps Fi in check by reminding the user of having a sense of proportion and the facts of the situation. Te provides ENFP's with a sense of grounding and practicality. ENFP's can be terrific at implementing things and getting things done; but Te is still in service to Fi. It's the Fi values and sense of inner harmony which directs the action.
 

greenfairy

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I speculate that weak Te has a lot to do with it, because some INTJs are better at this than others. Basically, they feel frustrated because they can't explain because the Te isn't strong enough.

Sometimes I get frustrated when I feel like me Ne isn't strong enough. I want to have some new creative idea, and it just doesn't come.
Yeah, I think that's part of it. I think that's also part of how people get into dominant-tertiary loops. Insufficient extroversion, i.e. focus on the ego and unwillingness to go outside one's comfort zone, underdevelops the auxiliary function.

Maybe I'm sidetracking things, but why do you think Ni is more abstract than Fi?
Ni is more abstract than Fi in my opinion because it incorporates all perspectives and multiple dimensions. Not being an Fi user I can't 100% say what it's like, but it seems to me to only deal with a couple of axes- that of one's relationship to the environment, and valuable vs. non-valuable- so in this way it is more linear and concrete. Ni sees from all sides, including inside out, to see an entire structure, and so it would include at least 3 dimensions.

Edit: I just thought of something else. Fi seems to be very good at understanding others' feelings, so it contains a very "watery" quality because it flows into others' perspectives. This adds some amount of abstraction. But once again it is along a continuum of other people vs. me, and it all relates back again to the self; so I think overall it still contains fewer dimensions than Ni (Ni being more than three I suppose). But it's true that they have a lot of similarities. Ultimately I think a judging function has to be less abstract than a perceiving function, because it's always going to organize things along a continuum, where a perceiving function will only go so far as to relate things to each other.

It's tricky, because in this context, subjective and objective don't actually mean what people think it means. Really, the only thing it means is internal vs. external.
I suppose. I was using all meanings of the word together (Ni there).
 

five sounds

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Yeah, I think so. Ne provides objective data, Fi personalizes it (and this personal perspective is emphasized with someone Fi aux/dom), and then Te executes the Fi decision or provides a reality check. Fi keeps Te in check by reminding the user of her or his feelings and social concerns, and Te keeps Fi in check by reminding the user of having a sense of proportion and the facts of the situation. Te provides ENFP's with a sense of grounding and practicality. ENFP's can be terrific at implementing things and getting things done; but Te is still in service to Fi. It's the Fi values and sense of inner harmony which directs the action.

Thanks! Glad to know my instinct wasn't way off :)
 

greenfairy

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Ultimately I think a judging function has to be less abstract than a perceiving function, because it's always going to organize things along a continuum, where a perceiving function will only go so far as to relate things to each other.
I just thought of something which might contradict this. This shows my N bias. in terms of abstraction N>S, N>F, but is S>F? Se seems like the least abstract function. Sure it's less organized than Fi, but it should really be the most concrete of the functions. So I guess judging functions are more organized, not necessarily more abstract.

If I am to rank them in order:
Ni-Fi-Ti-Ne-Si-Fe-Te-Se
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Yeah, I think that's part of it. I think that's also part of how people get into dominant-tertiary loops. Insufficient extroversion, i.e. focus on the ego and unwillingness to go outside one's comfort zone, underdevelops the auxiliary function.

I actually thought about this on my walk today, and I think the thing about my auxiliary function is that it takes conscious effort, whereas my dominant function seems to come naturally. I guess whether or not you use conscious effort depends on whether or not you have the will to use the function. This makes me wonder if there are some types that are less willing to use their auxiliary function, because the dominant and tertiary provides them with a lot of what they need.

I often find that, if I don't use intuition, there is nothing for my dominant function "to do" that it hasn't done before (si? ), and so I get bored. I wonder if some types are more "internally fueled" and so don't find it as useful to "go out of their comfort zone" ( as you put it) and extend the conscious effort.

Ni is more abstract than Fi in my opinion because it incorporates all perspectives and multiple dimensions. Not being an Fi user I can't 100% say what it's like, but it seems to me to only deal with a couple of axes- that of one's relationship to the environment, and valuable vs. non-valuable- so in this way it is more linear and concrete. Ni sees from all sides, including inside out, to see an entire structure, and so it would include at least 3 dimensions.

I really don't have a handle on Fi at all. I know what Se is, I just happen to suck at it. It's always at the bottom of my function tests. I sometimes wonder if my difficulty with understanding what Fi is can be related to the fact that it's actually very simple... this is good, this is bad. Not sure, really.

I'm starting to get a handle on introverted intuition, and I can definitely see how it relates to the INTJ stereotype of planning for every contingency. It's really Ni that allows them to do that, less than Te. ISTJs don't seem quite as prepared for the "unexpected", which makes sense, given how much of Si is related to experience.

Looked at this way, Ni is actually kind of cool, but I can also see how it would impede discussion when it's too "married" to Fi. Fi seems to take people requiring explanations as signs that someone mistrusts them. (I've noticed NFs discussing this phenomenon, so it's not just something I made up to explain why my ex annoyed me.)

Ti-Si..... "that'll never work. It's not worth trying because I've seen it fail too many times before"

Ni-Fi.... "What... you think I'm lying about this, and that I haven't actually thought about this a lot?"

Could this be the root of the INTP/INTJ conflicts? It seems like in both cases, the tertiary is really "pulling" the dominant in a certain direction (the weight of the unconscious?) but the person isn't aware that the dominant isn't actually calling the shots.

Edit: I just thought of something else. Fi seems to be very good at understanding others' feelings, so it contains a very "watery" quality because it flows into others' perspectives. This adds some amount of abstraction. But once again it is along a continuum of other people vs. me, and it all relates back again to the self; so I think overall it still contains fewer dimensions than Ni (Ni being more than three I suppose). But it's true that they have a lot of similarities. Ultimately I think a judging function has to be less abstract than a perceiving function, because it's always going to organize things along a continuum, where a perceiving function will only go so far as to relate things to each other.

Hmmm... yes. I can see Fi doms explaining how they "got there" now. It's just that it looks nothing like the way Ti doms do it, so I assume that they don't do it at all.



I just thought of something which might contradict this. This shows my N bias. in terms of abstraction N>S, N>F, but is S>F? Se seems like the least abstract function. Sure it's less organized than Fi, but it should really be the most concrete of the functions. So I guess judging functions are more organized, not necessarily more abstract.

If I am to rank them in order:
Ni-Fi-Ti-Ne-Si-Fe-Te-Se

If this is true, this makes INTJs more abstract than INTPs, I would think, despite the fact that INTPs seem more outwardly "dreamy".

Although, there is the Te all the way at the other end of the scale. I suppose whether or not an INTJ make conscious use of Te will make a very big difference. This is actually very much in line with what I had already speculated. I hypothesized that the extreme variation in how my discussions with INTJs go is related to the auxiliary.
 

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I think Edison was a Te user, ESTJ to be precise.
He was definately very bossy and used experience rather than conceptualization to come to basic discoveries.
A real Ti user would be like an Einstein or a Da Vinci.
Another real Te user could be Newton, who really made the system move.
Einstein and Da Vinci on the other hand just sought knowledge.
A real visionary however can take action to make these dreams real.

imo as of now:
Einstein - INTP 5w4 so/sp
da Vinci - ENTP 7w6 so/sx
Newton - INTJ 5w6 sp/sx
Edison - ENTJ 3w4 sp/so
 

Avocado

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imo as of now:
Einstein - INTP 5w4 so/sp
da Vinci - ENTP 7w6 so/sx
Newton - INTJ 5w6 sp/sx
Edison - ENTJ 3w4 sp/so

I see. What would correspond with slow, foggy thoughts?
 

greenfairy

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I actually thought about this on my walk today, and I think the thing about my auxiliary function is that it takes conscious effort, whereas my dominant function seems to come naturally. I guess whether or not you use conscious effort depends on whether or not you have the will to use the function. This makes me wonder if there are some types that are less willing to use their auxiliary function, because the dominant and tertiary provides them with a lot of what they need.

I often find that, if I don't use intuition, there is nothing for my dominant function "to do" that it hasn't done before (si? ), and so I get bored. I wonder if some types are more "internally fueled" and so don't find it as useful to "go out of their comfort zone" ( as you put it) and extend the conscious effort.
I hadn't thought about it that way, but you may be right. In any case, for an introvert extroverting anything takes more effort than being where they naturally are, and for an extrovert going inside takes effort too because it's not as stimulating and energizing. I wouldn't expect it to be different according to type, but it might. It would also I'm sure depend on the degree of extroversion or introversion, the Enneagram type, and the instinctual variant, although any of them can get into tertiary loops I expect.

I really don't have a handle on Fi at all. I know what Se is, I just happen to suck at it. It's always at the bottom of my function tests. I sometimes wonder if my difficulty with understanding what Fi is can be related to the fact that it's actually very simple... this is good, this is bad. Not sure, really.
It took me a long time to really understand it, and sometimes it still blows my mind with its utter inscrutability and seeming lack of logic. But that's the beauty of it; it is mystery and very yin. You kind of have to understand it through empathy and intuition. Even though a lot is written on it, words only get at the surface.
I'm starting to get a handle on introverted intuition, and I can definitely see how it relates to the INTJ stereotype of planning for every contingency. It's really Ni that allows them to do that, less than Te. ISTJs don't seem quite as prepared for the "unexpected", which makes sense, given how much of Si is related to experience.

I don't know about the tertiary pulling the dominant. That might be true. I would say since they have the same orientation they tend to support rather than challenge each other.

Looked at this way, Ni is actually kind of cool, but I can also see how it would impede discussion when it's too "married" to Fi. Fi seems to take people requiring explanations as signs that someone mistrusts them. (I've noticed NFs discussing this phenomenon, so it's not just something I made up to explain why my ex annoyed me.)

Ti-Si..... "that'll never work. It's not worth trying because I've seen it fail too many times before"

Ni-Fi.... "What... you think I'm lying about this, and that I haven't actually thought about this a lot?"

Could this be the root of the INTP/INTJ conflicts? It seems like in both cases, the tertiary is really "pulling" the dominant in a certain direction (the weight of the unconscious?) but the person isn't aware that the dominant isn't actually calling the shots.

I think this observation is on to something.

If this is true, this makes INTJs more abstract than INTPs, I would think, despite the fact that INTPs seem more outwardly "dreamy".

Although, there is the Te all the way at the other end of the scale. I suppose whether or not an INTJ make conscious use of Te will make a very big difference. This is actually very much in line with what I had already speculated. I hypothesized that the extreme variation in how my discussions with INTJs go is related to the auxiliary.
I think this is right.
 
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