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  1. #41
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorjuice View Post
    [There are people who have voiced pretty strong opposition to this and I've never understood why.
    How about going outside? That might help.

  2. #42
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    More questions:

    1. How do Ti users feel about doing research to solve a problem?
    For me, research is kind of boring; I like learning concepts and applying them, and interesting facts which have application to theories, but if the information is not related to either of these it's a chore and I feel it detains me from my Ti analytical process. I do it though, as I am a pretty anxious person and like the security of knowing things are going to turn out ok. If I'm going to do something which could potentially have negative consequences, I'm going to either do it right or get someone else to do it who will do it right. I prefer the latter some of the time haha. I have networking power and like delegation of responsibility within it.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    2. How would Te in the tertiary position solve a problem? Like ENFP's for example.
    I can't adequately answer this one. From people I know...my ENFP sister I think would take the following approach: use her Fi to determine the end goal (along with Te for practical value of the goal), use Ne to come up with a million possibilities, then tap into the Si store of knowledge and use Te to find procedures that will allow attainment of the goal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorjuice View Post
    Because of these things I've mentioned, I think it's generally the case that Ti is deductive whereas Te is inductive. There are people who have voiced pretty strong opposition to this and I've never understood why.
    You mean why some people seem to think it is the other way around? I don't know either. It's just plain mistaken. Maybe they misunderstand the meaning of the terms? Or have their own "creative" definitions of them?

  3. #43
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    You mean why some people seem to think it is the other way around? I don't know either. It's just plain mistaken. Maybe they misunderstand the meaning of the terms? Or have their own "creative" definitions of them?
    I didn't know there are people who think it's the other way around; that perplexes me even more.

    I have seen posts that generally say that such a relationship cannot be made and that to argue that it can be is silly or pointless. But I see inductive corresponding with Te very well and deductive corresponding with Ti very well.

    Induction corresponds with empirical reasoning. Thus, induction corresponds with Te.

    Deduction follows strict reasoning and logic. Ti corresponds with applying logical principles. Thus, deduction corresponds with Ti.

    Seems pretty simple to me.

    Of course, I'm open to any objections.

  4. #44
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorjuice View Post
    Of course, I'm open to any objections.
    Like I said. Go outside. Do you have any ESTP or ISTP friends? Are they really getting all egghead-ish and recalling models and systems before they hop into something? At least in my case, life has been more of an experiment. And I can't recall very many things where I explicitly calculated and abstracted a situation before getting involved. I didn't think of the correct parameters and form before jumping on a skateboard for the first time. Or if I saw a cute girl at a party, I didn't use a deductive process in approaching her, like some PUA dork. I just got involved with the situation.. this is Se.

    edit: Oh, and needless to say, this approach was met with plenty of failure. But that's OK.. You live, you learn.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    @KDude
    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    How about going outside? That might help.
    I sense you being derogatory here. Maybe I'm wrong.

    Like I said. Go outside. Do you have any ESTP or ISTP friends? Are they really getting all egghead-ish and recalling models and systems before they hop into something? At least in my case, life has been more of an experiment. And I can't recall very many things where I explicitly calculated and abstracted a situation before getting involved. I didn't think of the correct parameters and form before jumping on a skateboard for the first time. Or if I saw a cute girl at a party, I didn't use a deductive process in approaching her, like some PUA dork. I just got involved with the situation.. this is Se.

    edit: Oh, and needless to say, this approach was met with plenty of failure. But that's OK.. You live, you learn.
    Anyway, I see your point, but I would argue that you are talking about use of Se which is irrelevant to the discussion of Ti vs Te. In these situations, you're not really judging or coming to conclusions about anything, you are experiencing. Judgment doesn't occur until later or maybe in the moment. When this judgment does occur you are applying logical principles or a framework (Ti, assuming you are xSTP), whether you're fully conscious of the process or not. So then it just comes down to whether applying logical principles can be counted as deduction.

    EDIT: Also, deduction is not something that has to occur before experiencing something. You can come to judgments about an experience through deduction after the fact.

  6. #46
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorjuice View Post
    @KDude


    I sense you being derogatory here. Maybe I'm wrong.
    I'm stating a fact. Which may or may not be derogatory. You need to observe more STPs.

    Anyway, I see your point, but I would argue that you are talking about use of Se and is irrelevant to the discussion of Ti vs Te.
    No, it's not irrelevant. These functions don't exist in isolation. The sooner you learn that, the sooner you won't associate me with yourself. I don't want anything to do with your type of approach. It has no balls. It's signals a fear of involvement.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I'm stating a fact. Which may or may not be derogatory. You need to observe more STPs.
    Well, one of my closest friends is an ISTP, and I have interacted with a couple other STPs on a long-term basis. So, I don't think any further observation of STPs is going to change my opinions.

  8. #48
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorjuice View Post
    Well, one of my closest friends is an ISTP, and I have interacted with a couple other STPs on a long-term basis. So, I don't think any further observation of STPs is going to change my opinions.
    It doesn't add up. Your approach is one that seemingly wants to tighten all the screws before you get engaged. You seek structural, system wide integrity. And Ne keeps informing where these screws may be. It goes on and on. You see more sides to the problem(although to be fair, that can be very useful too). I don't need to know all of that. ISTPs just need situational cues. And even if they were need of the understanding you aspire to, they're only going to learn the hard way. Or they're going to dodge the ensuing problems and obstacles coming their way.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    It doesn't add up. Your approach is one that seemingly wants to tighten all the screws before you get engaged. You seek structural, system wide integrity. And Ne keeps informing where these screws may be. It goes on and on. You see more sides to the problem(although to be fair, that can be very useful too). I don't need to know all of that. ISTPs just need situational cues. And even if they were need of the understanding you aspire to, they're only going to learn the hard way. Or they're going to dodge the ensuing problems and obstacles coming their way.
    I won't argue with what you say here, it all seems on-target to me.

    To be clear, what you have said in your previous post applies quite well to ISTPs in my experience. We (You and I) do not differ in our general perceptions of ISTPs. In that regard, we are congruent with each other. Rather, we differ in how we are defining and categorizing ISTPs and their approaches to life. We also differ in how we categorize, define, and approach understanding Ti vs Te. You see isolating individual functions as fruitless in understanding them and that interplay between other functions must always be taken into account whereas I do not.

  10. #50
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorjuice View Post
    I won't argue with what you say here, it all seems on-target to me.

    To be clear, what you have said in your previous post applies quite well to ISTPs in my experience. We (You and I) do not differ in our general perceptions of ISTPs. In that regard, we are congruent with each other. Rather, we differ in how we are defining and categorizing ISTPs and their approaches to life.
    Fair enough. I know I've approached this rudely in some spots. I'm not making an excuse, but I was trying to set a boundary as clear as possible. Once we turn our attention to something, I think there's noticeable level of impatience between our types (where ISTP would be the impatient one).

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