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  1. #91
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I speculate that weak Te has a lot to do with it, because some INTJs are better at this than others. Basically, they feel frustrated because they can't explain because the Te isn't strong enough.

    Sometimes I get frustrated when I feel like me Ne isn't strong enough. I want to have some new creative idea, and it just doesn't come.
    Yeah, I think that's part of it. I think that's also part of how people get into dominant-tertiary loops. Insufficient extroversion, i.e. focus on the ego and unwillingness to go outside one's comfort zone, underdevelops the auxiliary function.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Maybe I'm sidetracking things, but why do you think Ni is more abstract than Fi?
    Ni is more abstract than Fi in my opinion because it incorporates all perspectives and multiple dimensions. Not being an Fi user I can't 100% say what it's like, but it seems to me to only deal with a couple of axes- that of one's relationship to the environment, and valuable vs. non-valuable- so in this way it is more linear and concrete. Ni sees from all sides, including inside out, to see an entire structure, and so it would include at least 3 dimensions.

    Edit: I just thought of something else. Fi seems to be very good at understanding others' feelings, so it contains a very "watery" quality because it flows into others' perspectives. This adds some amount of abstraction. But once again it is along a continuum of other people vs. me, and it all relates back again to the self; so I think overall it still contains fewer dimensions than Ni (Ni being more than three I suppose). But it's true that they have a lot of similarities. Ultimately I think a judging function has to be less abstract than a perceiving function, because it's always going to organize things along a continuum, where a perceiving function will only go so far as to relate things to each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    It's tricky, because in this context, subjective and objective don't actually mean what people think it means. Really, the only thing it means is internal vs. external.
    I suppose. I was using all meanings of the word together (Ni there).

  2. #92
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Yeah, I think so. Ne provides objective data, Fi personalizes it (and this personal perspective is emphasized with someone Fi aux/dom), and then Te executes the Fi decision or provides a reality check. Fi keeps Te in check by reminding the user of her or his feelings and social concerns, and Te keeps Fi in check by reminding the user of having a sense of proportion and the facts of the situation. Te provides ENFP's with a sense of grounding and practicality. ENFP's can be terrific at implementing things and getting things done; but Te is still in service to Fi. It's the Fi values and sense of inner harmony which directs the action.
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  3. #93
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    No, definitely not.
    Well I'm glad that you agree then.

  4. #94
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Ultimately I think a judging function has to be less abstract than a perceiving function, because it's always going to organize things along a continuum, where a perceiving function will only go so far as to relate things to each other.
    I just thought of something which might contradict this. This shows my N bias. in terms of abstraction N>S, N>F, but is S>F? Se seems like the least abstract function. Sure it's less organized than Fi, but it should really be the most concrete of the functions. So I guess judging functions are more organized, not necessarily more abstract.

    If I am to rank them in order:
    Ni-Fi-Ti-Ne-Si-Fe-Te-Se

  5. #95
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Yeah, I think that's part of it. I think that's also part of how people get into dominant-tertiary loops. Insufficient extroversion, i.e. focus on the ego and unwillingness to go outside one's comfort zone, underdevelops the auxiliary function.
    I actually thought about this on my walk today, and I think the thing about my auxiliary function is that it takes conscious effort, whereas my dominant function seems to come naturally. I guess whether or not you use conscious effort depends on whether or not you have the will to use the function. This makes me wonder if there are some types that are less willing to use their auxiliary function, because the dominant and tertiary provides them with a lot of what they need.

    I often find that, if I don't use intuition, there is nothing for my dominant function "to do" that it hasn't done before (si? ), and so I get bored. I wonder if some types are more "internally fueled" and so don't find it as useful to "go out of their comfort zone" ( as you put it) and extend the conscious effort.

    Ni is more abstract than Fi in my opinion because it incorporates all perspectives and multiple dimensions. Not being an Fi user I can't 100% say what it's like, but it seems to me to only deal with a couple of axes- that of one's relationship to the environment, and valuable vs. non-valuable- so in this way it is more linear and concrete. Ni sees from all sides, including inside out, to see an entire structure, and so it would include at least 3 dimensions.
    I really don't have a handle on Fi at all. I know what Se is, I just happen to suck at it. It's always at the bottom of my function tests. I sometimes wonder if my difficulty with understanding what Fi is can be related to the fact that it's actually very simple... this is good, this is bad. Not sure, really.

    I'm starting to get a handle on introverted intuition, and I can definitely see how it relates to the INTJ stereotype of planning for every contingency. It's really Ni that allows them to do that, less than Te. ISTJs don't seem quite as prepared for the "unexpected", which makes sense, given how much of Si is related to experience.

    Looked at this way, Ni is actually kind of cool, but I can also see how it would impede discussion when it's too "married" to Fi. Fi seems to take people requiring explanations as signs that someone mistrusts them. (I've noticed NFs discussing this phenomenon, so it's not just something I made up to explain why my ex annoyed me.)

    Ti-Si..... "that'll never work. It's not worth trying because I've seen it fail too many times before"

    Ni-Fi.... "What... you think I'm lying about this, and that I haven't actually thought about this a lot?"

    Could this be the root of the INTP/INTJ conflicts? It seems like in both cases, the tertiary is really "pulling" the dominant in a certain direction (the weight of the unconscious?) but the person isn't aware that the dominant isn't actually calling the shots.


    Edit: I just thought of something else. Fi seems to be very good at understanding others' feelings, so it contains a very "watery" quality because it flows into others' perspectives. This adds some amount of abstraction. But once again it is along a continuum of other people vs. me, and it all relates back again to the self; so I think overall it still contains fewer dimensions than Ni (Ni being more than three I suppose). But it's true that they have a lot of similarities. Ultimately I think a judging function has to be less abstract than a perceiving function, because it's always going to organize things along a continuum, where a perceiving function will only go so far as to relate things to each other.
    Hmmm... yes. I can see Fi doms explaining how they "got there" now. It's just that it looks nothing like the way Ti doms do it, so I assume that they don't do it at all.



    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I just thought of something which might contradict this. This shows my N bias. in terms of abstraction N>S, N>F, but is S>F? Se seems like the least abstract function. Sure it's less organized than Fi, but it should really be the most concrete of the functions. So I guess judging functions are more organized, not necessarily more abstract.

    If I am to rank them in order:
    Ni-Fi-Ti-Ne-Si-Fe-Te-Se
    If this is true, this makes INTJs more abstract than INTPs, I would think, despite the fact that INTPs seem more outwardly "dreamy".

    Although, there is the Te all the way at the other end of the scale. I suppose whether or not an INTJ make conscious use of Te will make a very big difference. This is actually very much in line with what I had already speculated. I hypothesized that the extreme variation in how my discussions with INTJs go is related to the auxiliary.
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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poimandres View Post
    I think Edison was a Te user, ESTJ to be precise.
    He was definately very bossy and used experience rather than conceptualization to come to basic discoveries.
    A real Ti user would be like an Einstein or a Da Vinci.
    Another real Te user could be Newton, who really made the system move.
    Einstein and Da Vinci on the other hand just sought knowledge.
    A real visionary however can take action to make these dreams real.
    imo as of now:
    Einstein - INTP 5w4 so/sp
    da Vinci - ENTP 7w6 so/sx
    Newton - INTJ 5w6 sp/sx
    Edison - ENTJ 3w4 sp/so

  7. #97
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poimandres View Post
    imo as of now:
    Einstein - INTP 5w4 so/sp
    da Vinci - ENTP 7w6 so/sx
    Newton - INTJ 5w6 sp/sx
    Edison - ENTJ 3w4 sp/so
    I see. What would correspond with slow, foggy thoughts?
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    I see. What would correspond with slow, foggy thoughts?
    idk, maybe a type of person that overthinks things and digs big holes?

  9. #99
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I actually thought about this on my walk today, and I think the thing about my auxiliary function is that it takes conscious effort, whereas my dominant function seems to come naturally. I guess whether or not you use conscious effort depends on whether or not you have the will to use the function. This makes me wonder if there are some types that are less willing to use their auxiliary function, because the dominant and tertiary provides them with a lot of what they need.

    I often find that, if I don't use intuition, there is nothing for my dominant function "to do" that it hasn't done before (si? ), and so I get bored. I wonder if some types are more "internally fueled" and so don't find it as useful to "go out of their comfort zone" ( as you put it) and extend the conscious effort.
    I hadn't thought about it that way, but you may be right. In any case, for an introvert extroverting anything takes more effort than being where they naturally are, and for an extrovert going inside takes effort too because it's not as stimulating and energizing. I wouldn't expect it to be different according to type, but it might. It would also I'm sure depend on the degree of extroversion or introversion, the Enneagram type, and the instinctual variant, although any of them can get into tertiary loops I expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I really don't have a handle on Fi at all. I know what Se is, I just happen to suck at it. It's always at the bottom of my function tests. I sometimes wonder if my difficulty with understanding what Fi is can be related to the fact that it's actually very simple... this is good, this is bad. Not sure, really.
    It took me a long time to really understand it, and sometimes it still blows my mind with its utter inscrutability and seeming lack of logic. But that's the beauty of it; it is mystery and very yin. You kind of have to understand it through empathy and intuition. Even though a lot is written on it, words only get at the surface.
    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I'm starting to get a handle on introverted intuition, and I can definitely see how it relates to the INTJ stereotype of planning for every contingency. It's really Ni that allows them to do that, less than Te. ISTJs don't seem quite as prepared for the "unexpected", which makes sense, given how much of Si is related to experience.
    I don't know about the tertiary pulling the dominant. That might be true. I would say since they have the same orientation they tend to support rather than challenge each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Looked at this way, Ni is actually kind of cool, but I can also see how it would impede discussion when it's too "married" to Fi. Fi seems to take people requiring explanations as signs that someone mistrusts them. (I've noticed NFs discussing this phenomenon, so it's not just something I made up to explain why my ex annoyed me.)

    Ti-Si..... "that'll never work. It's not worth trying because I've seen it fail too many times before"

    Ni-Fi.... "What... you think I'm lying about this, and that I haven't actually thought about this a lot?"

    Could this be the root of the INTP/INTJ conflicts? It seems like in both cases, the tertiary is really "pulling" the dominant in a certain direction (the weight of the unconscious?) but the person isn't aware that the dominant isn't actually calling the shots.
    I think this observation is on to something.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    If this is true, this makes INTJs more abstract than INTPs, I would think, despite the fact that INTPs seem more outwardly "dreamy".

    Although, there is the Te all the way at the other end of the scale. I suppose whether or not an INTJ make conscious use of Te will make a very big difference. This is actually very much in line with what I had already speculated. I hypothesized that the extreme variation in how my discussions with INTJs go is related to the auxiliary.
    I think this is right.

  10. #100
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poimandres View Post
    idk, maybe a type of person that overthinks things and digs big holes?
    That would be me…
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
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    Date of Birth: March 15, 1996
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

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