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View Poll Results: Which comes closer to your point of view?

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  • A. Everything has a reason even if we don't or can't understand it yet

    7 58.33%
  • B. Some things happen for no clear reason

    5 41.67%
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  1. #1
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Default Is there a reason for everything?

    Which comes closer to your point of view:

    A) There is a reason for everything that happens. We just may not know it yet or currently lack the tools needed to answer our questions.

    B) I believe there are some things that go beyond any rational explanation and it's futile to try to find a reason.


    Are there type differences in the tendency towards A or B? I'd guess NTs would be more inclined towards A and NFs towards B.

    I'm strongly in the first camp.
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  2. #2
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    hm? Those two groups aren't exclusive, to me. You can have things that have a reason, but trying to find that reason is futile since it's beyond our comprehension ("rational explanation"), at least at this point in time.

    I suppose I fit more in group A though, if I'd have to choose.
    -end of thread-

  3. #3
    your resident asshole
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    A definitely. You should add a poll if it isn't too late.

  4. #4
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    A) There is a reason for everything that happens. We just may not know it yet or currently lack the tools needed to answer our questions.
    This.

    We do have the tools - Actions have consequences.

    However we do not know when and what actions produced the consequences and don't forget; our understanding of life is limited to the present, whereas there very well could have been others.

  5. #5
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I'm never entirely certain how to deal with that question because it seems reasonable to say there is an explanation for everything, a cause-and-effect. That is different than saying there is a "reason", which implies that there is meaning or a connection to something larger. I don't assume my brain has the capacity to comprehend the whole of reality, so it could be more than just a lack of tools.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #6
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    Which comes closer to your point of view:

    A) There is a reason for everything that happens. We just may not know it yet or currently lack the tools needed to answer our questions.

    B) I believe there are some things that go beyond any rational explanation and it's futile to try to find a reason.


    Are there type differences in the tendency towards A or B? I'd guess NTs would be more inclined towards A and NFs towards B.

    I'm strongly in the first camp.
    A)

    If, by "reason" you refer to a demonstrable series of events that describe or justify an action, then yes -- our physical universe can be "reason"-ably understood. The second part of your statement isn't (ironically) rational: to determine the engine behind our lack of understanding, either by way of inadequacy in "tools" or intellectual experience requires a system wherein all the variables (all maths, all science, all positive information) have already been collected and measured against the control variable (us) and ultimately evaluated as intellectually unavailable and then organized as either a question of "tools" or infancy in physical experience.

    To know why we don't know requires an understanding of physical reality that already contains everything predefined. In short, we'd already know everything, so the act of trying to understand why we still don't know something would be irrational.

    B)

    "Rational understanding" simply means we can diagram the process taken to arrive at a conclusion: A mechanical expression of observed, repeatable event. We have a rational understanding of why light travels faster than sound, or why the space around an object distorts as gravity increases. The ultimate expression of rational would be something close to (limited) omniscience, where every possible process is understood and all information has been encountered, insofar as your current physical universe allows.

    So, to transcend this limited omniscience, you'd have to introduce new information from somewhere else. Like a new dimension. Or different universe. With enough time and space, this process could feasibly repeat forever.

    If (true) omniscience is knowing everything, everywhere, the process of introduction and mastery would need to repeat forever.


    So, to answer your question, nothing is beyond rational explanation unless it occurs outside your physical reality. And even then, only for a little while.

  7. #7
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    A)

    If, by "reason" you refer to a demonstrable series of events that describe or justify an action, then yes -- our physical universe can be "reason"-ably understood. The second part of your statement isn't (ironically) rational: to determine the engine behind our lack of understanding, either by way of inadequacy in "tools" or intellectual experience requires a system wherein all the variables (all maths, all science, all positive information) have already been collected and measured against the control variable (us) and ultimately evaluated as intellectually unavailable and then organized as either a question of "tools" or infancy in physical experience.

    To know why we don't know requires an understanding of physical reality that already contains everything predefined. In short, we'd already know everything, so the act of trying to understand why we still don't know something would be irrational.

    B)

    "Rational understanding" simply means we can diagram the process taken to arrive at a conclusion: A mechanical expression of observed, repeatable event. We have a rational understanding of why light travels faster than sound, or why the space around an object distorts as gravity increases. The ultimate expression of rational would be something close to (limited) omniscience, where every possible process is understood and all information has been encountered, insofar as your current physical universe allows.

    So, to transcend this limited omniscience, you'd have to introduce new information from somewhere else. Like a new dimension. Or different universe. With enough time and space, this process could feasibly repeat forever.

    If (true) omniscience is knowing everything, everywhere, the process of introduction and mastery would need to repeat forever.


    So, to answer your question, nothing is beyond rational explanation unless it occurs outside your physical reality. And even then, only for a little while.
    Much more thorough than my answer, but in the same vein. Go Ni!
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #8
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    I would place myself in the second position (B) - logic can be turned on its head, just as laws can be broken under extreme conditions; there is a field full of potential ahead that can in no way be limited.

  9. #9
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    hm? Those two groups aren't exclusive, to me. You can have things that have a reason, but trying to find that reason is futile since it's beyond our comprehension ("rational explanation"), at least at this point in time.

    I suppose I fit more in group A though, if I'd have to choose.
    Something like this
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  10. #10
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Speaking as a perceiver of sorts, it seems to me that if you can be aware of "it", then you can rationalize "it". So then what of the things that happen that you cannot be aware of? If there are such things, was there a reason for them? To say "yes" seems like an act of faith. In which case, rationally, one might be better off saying "no, there wasn't a reason, and there won't have been one until we somehow become able to know there was one."

    All moot, of course, if we claim that were something to happen, then we would in principle able to be aware of it.

    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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