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View Poll Results: Which comes closer to your point of view?

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  • A. Everything has a reason even if we don't or can't understand it yet

    7 58.33%
  • B. Some things happen for no clear reason

    5 41.67%
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  1. #11
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    Which comes closer to your point of view:

    A) There is a reason for everything that happens. We just may not know it yet or currently lack the tools needed to answer our questions.

    B) I believe there are some things that go beyond any rational explanation and it's futile to try to find a reason.
    Neither. Both options imply a kind of dogmatic and unfounded certainty.

    A) is pure arrogance. How can anyone sensibly assert an opinion about what one does not know?
    B) is just defeatism/sour grapes.

    There is no compelling reason to believe that there is a reason for anything let alone everything, yet it seems to be comforting to human beings to believe otherwise. Which, in the final analysis, is probably the only reason that matters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #12
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Speaking as a perceiver of sorts, it seems to me that if you can be aware of "it", then you can rationalize "it". So then what of the things that happen that you cannot be aware of? If there are such things, was there a reason for them? To say "yes" seems like an act of faith. In which case, rationally, one might be better off saying "no, there wasn't a reason, and there won't have been one until we somehow become able to know there was one."

    All moot, of course, if we claim that were something to happen, then we would in principle able to be aware of it.

    many things are so complex that you are not able to be aware of it all and being able to rationalize something doesent mean just seeing that something is, you need to be able to comprehend it from all angles and know how it reacts to other things etc. perceiving it would be like knowing a word and being able to rationalize is being able to actually use that word in a sentence that makes sense.

    quantum physics would be a good example, you can perceive weird things, but people can only theorize what the heck is actually going on and cant even seem to find a proper paradigm for how light works. seeing that light hits your eye doesent really mean that light can be rationalized
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  3. #13
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    There is no compelling reason to believe that there is a reason for anything let alone everything, yet it seems to be comforting to human beings to believe otherwise. Which, in the final analysis, is probably the only reason that matters.
    This, actually.

    Do you mean "reason" as "explanation" or "reason" as "purpose"? Those are totally different, but are often conflated. One is scientific and the other is teleogical or sentimental. Scientific investigation has consistently turned up explanation for things, but there are a lot of things we can't explain, and perhaps there is some sort of randomness too. Like electrons only have a probability of being in a certain place at a certain time. There may be an underlying pattern, but observing it influences the results. As for "purpose," well I think that is entirely human created because it makes us feel good. But who am I to say? Maybe feeling good is the "purpose" of human life.

  4. #14
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    It's a question of faith. I believe in destiny, whatever happened, was meant to be.

    So yes, there's a reason, it is inescapable, you will get the life you were destined for.

    Those things which ended, were not meant to be. Those things which happened, were for a reason, which only at the end of the story will be understood.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    Which comes closer to your point of view:

    A) There is a reason for everything that happens. We just may not know it yet or currently lack the tools needed to answer our questions.

    B) I believe there are some things that go beyond any rational explanation and it's futile to try to find a reason.


    Are there type differences in the tendency towards A or B? I'd guess NTs would be more inclined towards A and NFs towards B.

    I'm strongly in the first camp.
    To apply reason, you have to have a perception about what you are going to reason. And how you perceive things will affect how you reason them; and how you reason things will affect how you perceive things.

    Rationality (reason) and irrationality (perception) then are intertwined with each other. This is also a conceptual basis for Jung's irrational functions (Ni, Ne, Si, and Se) versus rational functions (Fi, Fe, Te, and Ti).

    That said, irrationals would reason based on perceptions, while rationals would perceive based on reasons, conceptually speaking. It also means that from the perspective of being an individual, that there are aspects to your existence that are both rational and irrational to you, making the idea that you can find a reason to everything somewhat paradoxical in regards to yourself. That doesn't mean that reality itself however couldn't be fully explained, but it does mean any explanation you find or create is tinged with irrationality.

    To hope to fully explain reality then, one would have to be removed from it in order not to affect it (or change its nature). Paradoxically though, unless you created the reason behind reality as some God, even if you were removed from it, there would be no way to observe it in order to understand it. So the belief that reality can be fully reasoned becomes somewhat silly. Determinists then, I find incredibly ironic because reason (as I've done here) can be used to prove the unreasonable, yet they believe everything can be fully reasoned. Funny then...how being reasonable can be so unreasonable.


    But I find your description of A) somewhat annoying in regards to B) in that it doesn't modify it as a belief also. I'll fix it. And if you asked me, I'd say you left out category C) as well:

    A) (I believe) There is a reason for everything that happens. We just may not know it yet or currently lack the tools needed to answer our questions.
    B) I believe there are some things that go beyond any rational explanation and it's futile to try to find a reason.
    C) I'm open to the idea that reality can be irrational and rational in regards to myself, even if it is truly fundamentally rational or irrational. I don't need to believe anything in order to do so.

    I'm C). It's seems hard to find others in C) as well. But it's easy to spot in communication; those in A) or B) will compartmentalize those in C) as in A) or B). Those in C) will refrain because they know better. I like C)s. They don't feel threatening.

  6. #16
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Things happen for statistical reasons.

    So a coin will come up heads for no particular reason. But a thousand tosses of the coin will give a particular result, for statistical reasons.

    And in the same way an atom will decay for no particular reason but a thousand atoms will decay with great precision.

    However we seek patterns even when there are none, so things seem to happen for a reason. This is the reason we gamble - we don't know the statistical odds, and assign reasons where there are none.

  7. #17
    your resident asshole
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    I forgot to mention this...but I have a very large problem with the way the OP and poll are worded. While I chose "reason" to mean "scientific explanation," someone else might take it to mean that "reason" signifies "meaning."

    Wording is everything.

  8. #18
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    many things are so complex that you are not able to be aware of it all and being able to rationalize something doesent mean just seeing that something is, you need to be able to comprehend it from all angles and know how it reacts to other things etc. perceiving it would be like knowing a word and being able to rationalize is being able to actually use that word in a sentence that makes sense.
    OMG EVEN U?!

    Those words "rationalize" and "perceive" work differently for us--AS U WELL KNOW! It behooves us all to ask then whether any of those words have meaning outside of cognitive constructs. Objectivity in "thinking" and "reasoning" is differently placed for Te and Ti types; compass and utility of perception likewise differs depending on whether you lean more heavily on Ni or Ne for the content of that perception. Etc. So how in the end is it possible to make sense of "comprehend it from all angles" or "know how it reacts to other things" WITHOUT JUST MAKING STUFF UP?

    "Is there a reason for everything?" devolves then to a more fundamental question: "Do we ever make direct contact with anything at all outside our own heads?" If we don't, then the question of reasons is objectively unanswerable. But if we do, then maybe there can be a basis for discovering reasons for everything.

    Personally, I think we do make direct contact with the outside world. I don't mean Se here. I mean there's at least some fraction of human cognition that draws its information or judgment directly from the outside. I presume it's not any conscious part, though. By the time cognition is conscious it is thoroughly alienated from the world. But something in there is directly connected, whether we like it or not.

    As to whether there really are reasons independent of human invention of "reasons".... sure, why not? No need now to go belly flopping into religion just because science got hard, eh? We're not Fs, after all.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  9. #19
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    "Is there a reason for everything?" devolves then to a more fundamental question: "Do we ever make direct contact with anything at all outside our own heads?" If we don't, then the question of reasons is objectively unanswerable. But if we do, then maybe there can be a basis for discovering reasons for everything.
    The funny thing is, even if we do make direct contact outside our own heads, there's still the question of whether or not reality has any strict forms to begin with. After all, time glues everything, but changes everything, given enough time. That change itself is then ironic in that it would have no definite form and then couldn't be definitely reasoned, but yet that process of changing could be perceived as having an abstract form on itself - an archetype. For example, a human being could be considered an archetypal pattern from which all humans are different in some degree and live differently in some degree; so if we talk about being human as a particular kind of archetypal process that we go through, that would have more insightful meaning than talking about a human being definitely, which is going to be somewhat different for all of us and carry some margin of error, despite being "reasonable".

    In this sense, does SuchIrony equate reason with understanding? It seems so, but it would be mistaken as there can be understanding without reason too, whereas there is no understanding with the unreasonable. And B) does not necessarily assert that there are aspects to the world that are unreasonable, but maybe sometimes without reason.

  10. #20
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Personally, I think we do make direct contact with the outside world. I don't mean Se here. I mean there's at least some fraction of human cognition that draws its information or judgment directly from the outside. I presume it's not any conscious part, though. By the time cognition is conscious it is thoroughly alienated from the world. But something in there is directly connected, whether we like it or not.
    What nonsense. What arrogance! "I think...I presume....therefore, it's true, whether you like it or not!"

    Are you INTJ, by any chance?

    "Also, I'm not going to flesh out how such a thing might even be possible, because, you know, Ni doesn't work that way. Still, this makes me better than a simple feeler-believer."

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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