iNtuition in a state of barbarism?

[KDude]

Both extraverted perception types deal with emergent data, but what I see is that Ne users are always wanting of more data, more possibility, more options, more tweaking, more discussion, more sides to the story. I guess depending on Ti or Fi, it'd be to build some ideal congruent to "self" or just for the sake of a more complete, mapped out proposal. They don't act as quickly as Se. How that transfers to "hunting", I don't know. Acting quickly is necessary. I'm sure they'd be fine, if someone pushed them a little.

 

[Il Morto Che Parla]

Im referring to this:

"Although this(introverted) intuition may receive its impetus from outer objects, it is never arrested by the external possibilities, but stays with that factor which the outer object releases within."

"Not the strongest sensation, in the physiological sense, obtains the crucial value, but any sensation whatsoever whose value happens to become considerably enhanced by reason of the (extraverted)intuitive's unconscious attitude.

Just as extraverted sensation strives to reach the highest pitch of actuality, because only thus can the appearance of a complete life be created, so (extraverted)intuition tries to encompass the greatest possibilities, since only through the awareness of possibilities is intuition fully satisfied. Intuition seeks to discover possibilities in the objective situation"

-Jung

and i dont understand why you would think im referring to things like 'can i jump over that puddle without wetting my feet'..

Ok I'll be honest, I find it hard to make sense of Jung in his own words. I mainly go by other people's explanations of what he is saying. those things you posted, are hard for me to process.

I can read Freud, Lacan, Zizek, and many pretty "out there" theoreticians, with no problem. But Jung's style is often very vague to me. Not abstract. Vague. Is different.

So instead of telling me what you are not talking about, give me a concrete example of what you are talking about, as it applies to the scenario I suggested.

 

[Il Morto Che Parla]

Acting quickly is necessary. I'm sure they'd be fine, if someone pushed them a little.

Story of my life man. I do fine as long as I have a boot up my ass to keep me on track.

Maybe this is why so many INTP's online seem to be serving/ex military.

 

[UniqueMixture]

I think they were just high on the volcanic fissures in the area.

Yeah probably haha. I like to imagine perhaps some legends of mystics and so forth were just exaggerations of people with a "grand vision" and so forth.

 

[Rasofy]

So my point is, 1.) does iNtution in the sense of ABSTRACT THINKING only emerge in relatively wealthy comfortable surrounding?

You might be on to something here. I believe upbringing plays a very strong role in cognitive function development.

Leave a baby to be raised in a society where questioning the status quo leads to horrific deaths, and it'll likely end up with a strong Si usage.

Leave a baby to be raised by wolves and its Se usage will end up absurdly high.

And 2.) Does this mean that N's just don't exist in barbaric times/countries, or that they do exist, but are just seen as dopey/slow.

Chances are everyone would be far less intuitive in comparison.

 

[Cellmold]

Doubtful. Unless they had minions to command. INTJs almost certainly invented hierarchical society.

What about ENTJ's, (I am bizniz man),?

 

[Viridian]

Glossing over for a moment your potentially inflammatory ideas about what constitutes a "barbaric" society... I think we have all the evidence we need to answer this question purely based on the distribution of type today. Clearly, through much of human history favouring Sensing has been advantageous to survival and breeding success. But since intuition is wired into the human neocortex (our brains have not changed significantly since the Pleistocene) it's nonsensical to suggest it wouldn't appear at all.
Intuition is principally about predictive intelligence, spotting patterns, predicting outcomes, linking ideas. So clearly it offers advantages when it comes to strategising, categorising, tool invention etc. I.e. those things which enhance the success of the species or the group, sometimes over that of the individual.

I agree with this (including the part about "barbarism" being a dubious word here).

I mean, culture has existed alongside man ever since their conception as a social animal, and culture is rife with symbolism. Remember the Lascaux caves?

 

[Il Morto Che Parla]

I mean, culture has existed alongside man ever since their conception as a social animal, and culture is rife with symbolism. Remember the Lascaux caves?

Ok, 2 things.

First, culture is not necessarilly an expression of N.

Here we have "popular culture and type", meaning many artists are considered SP's and SJ's.

If your symbolism is a product of abstract thinking, it's N-, if it's a product of concrete thinking,it's S-. The end result is not prima facie evidence of the thought process which motivated it.

My question is, what kind of framework did/do people in such situations, have to develop abstract thinking, when all their existence is so firmly rooted to the natural world, and they are illiterate, have no education, etc.

Second, let's assume that a given cave painting is a product of N-.

This does not imply the person who did it was an N-dom. My question, how could they survive as one, in such a world? they couldn't live from cave painting.

Even imaginign an aristocracy in such societies, which could devote its time to spiritualism/star-gazing/cave painting - we are still talking abou 1% of the population. what did the others do, who wouldn't be born to such a priveliged position?

 

[Kalach]

Intuition is adaptive in an evolutionary sense. The modern version where you sit around thinking airy thoughts isn't. But the cognitive version is, or it is so long as consciousness is, because intuition and sensing work together in a dynamic opposition that makes consciousness possible.

"We uze all ur funzionz" actually makes sense that way.

 

[Salomé]

/Fe

Oh please. It's Ti. I wasn't offended by your tactlessness, just your poor use of vocab.

Inflammatory =/= undesirable.

Sure. If your intention is to troll. Otherwise, it detracts from your question. As such, a sincere poster would find it undesirable.

I said, how would iNtutivies - i.e. dom or aux - develop, if at all.

As I have already said, Intuition obviously developed because it was advantageous to survival. Evolution doesn't squander resources developing traits which remain dormant. Lateral thinking is useful in a wide range of situations. Man is, has always been, a social animal, and almost uniquely, one who employs division of labour to great advantage. It's not difficult to imagine individuals with great story-telling ability, spirituality, foresight, etc, finding and exploiting a niche, even if they are not the best hunters or gatherers.

 

[Salomé]

why?

i mean that Se surely would help, even tho its inferior and Ni represses part of it, Ni only represses the parts that are not relevant. this would cause better concentration to sensory input on essentials in tracking the pray and Ni would obviously be the best at drawing conclusions on things like what direction the pray most likely took if you lost it tracks for a moment. also Te would be much more suitable on this than Ti would, because its faster and well, you only need to use simple thinking based on past experiences on this sort of stuff. F would obviously be useless as dom/aux, but that tert Fi striving to gain for self(as opposed to others) would become handy.

i think ENTPs would be pretty much on par with INTJs, except that INTJ might be more patient and not make so much rash decisions or take risks on things like when to start chasing fast, which obviously has a risk of you tiring yourself out and not being able to continue tiring down the pray in constant phase.

also i think many INTJs suffer from add(and/or try to find stimulation from fast phased computer games) for this exact reason that they are missing this sort of hands on doing(to which they developed in evolution). also i discussed about this few times with my INTJ friend(who doesent care to know what INTJ is) and we both came to the conclusion that his temperament fits better living in the woods as people lived in neanderthal times.

Just because we might like them all to go live in the woods, doesn't mean they'd survive.

I don't agree with your ideas about the efficacy of inferior functions, obviously.

 

[Kalach]

Types in the Wild

INTJ Bear Grylls -- drinks own piss
INTP Bear Grylls -- needing a more complete sample, drinks everyone else's piss, banished as a glutton.

 

[KDude]

I think an INTP would stall and come up with something far more ingenious than drinking urine.

 

[Kalach]

Well sure. A thorough study of the types and varieties. Only a clod would simply drink it off. The connoisseur partakes.

 

[FDG]

For me the N would be more naturally to think about unrealistic and impractical ideas.

Then you're simply mistaken. Some ideas will be unrealistic and impractical, others won't. Otherwise these functions would have absolutely no use.

 

[Salomé]

I think an INTP would stall and come up with something far more ingenious than drinking urine.

Blood is more nutritious.

And you don't need to go down to the woods to see INTJs drinking their own piss.

 

[KDude]

Blood is more nutritious.

And you don't need to go down to the woods to see INTJs drinking their own piss.

How about piss and blood? Electrolytes, iron.. everything a good boy (or girl) needs.

 

[Salomé]

How about piss and blood?

I've had some strange offers in my time ...

 

[Il Morto Che Parla]

Intuition is adaptive in an evolutionary sense. The modern version where you sit around thinking airy thoughts isn't. But the cognitive version is, or it is so long as consciousness is, because intuition and sensing work together in a dynamic opposition that makes consciousness possible.

"We uze all ur funzionz" actually makes sense that way.

I agree.

My point was about N-doms or aux though. These are characterized by a preference for abstract thinking, which would seem a disadvantage in those scenarios I described.

Oh please. It's Ti. I wasn't offended by your tactlessness, just your poor use of vocab.

Fe does not mean you would be offended, just give importance to group harmony.

Sure. If your intention is to troll. Otherwise, it detracts from your question. As such, a sincere poster would find it undesirable.

Fe in the support of Ti, trying to avoid unnecessarry conflict so that Ti can establish truth for utilitarian benefit according to a framework of humanist principles provided by Fe.

But in any case, barbarism is the correct word to use.

As I have already said, Intuition obviously developed because it was advantageous to survival. Evolution doesn't squander resources developing traits which remain dormant. Lateral thinking is useful in a wide range of situations. Man is, has always been, a social animal, and almost uniquely, one who employs division of labour to great advantage. It's not difficult to imagine individuals with great story-telling ability, spirituality, foresight, etc, finding and exploiting a niche, even if they are not the best hunters or gatherers.

It's hard for me to imagine how 30% of the society could live like that, especially in societies where your birth determined your occupation.

 

[KDude]

I agree.

My point was about N-doms or aux though. These are characterized by a preference for abstract thinking, which would seem a disadvantage in those scenarios I described.

Like I said about pushing people out of their comfort zone earlier.. anyone can commit to unlikely activities, if necessary. MBTI was designed to only describe types as Preferences. Myers was appalled when she saw companies firing people for their test results. It wasn't meant to describe people in their totality.