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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I don't either. It's just one potential solution to the problem you pose. If no solution exists, then the problem is likely posed in the wrong fashion (and I think so).

    You did not use intelligence/ability in this fashion in your preceeding posts (see the your footnote in post 61), rather you referred to a general capacity to learn quickly. Which is what I am referring to in my answer. Say I am half as naturally coordinated as you, but I can learn new movements in double the speed. Given the same level of practice, we will reach a similar level of skill.
    OK, noted.

    This is a novel and possible solution. I don't believe it, but it would solve the problem. Thank you for the contribution.



    Concrete knowledge is the basis for insight in N types, too.
    True, but abstract thinking would relate to constructing and relating to a "superstructure" of ideas with the concrete world as a point of reference.

    i.e. debating and understanding, general truths and ideas, rather than a very specific novel idea regarding a farm.

    True, a specific advance can come from a general idea. But in those societies, was/is there a possibility for abstract thinking, from which the N could then draw their ideas for application to concrete reality?

  2. #72
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    I often wondered how does this work?

    i.e. you were born a serf in medieval Europe.

    Or in a village in Somalia/Afghanistan/Pakistan etc. today.

    If you were an iNtuitive, would you simply be less effective at surviving, i.e. essentially a slightly slower less "on the ball" version of the people around you?

    Or would iNtuition simply not develop in people in those situations at all?

    Btw I am using iNtution in the Jungian sense, i.e. ABSTRACT THINKING. I am not using it in the sense of "intuition" as used day-to-day, which means something different, i.e. ability to read people/read a situation instinctively, which Sensors are often better at the iNtuitives anyway, and which would be very useful in the aforementioned situations.

    So my point is, 1.) does iNtution in the sense of ABSTRACT THINKING only emerge in relatively wealthy comfortable surrounding? And 2.) Does this mean that N's just don't exist in barbaric times/countries, or that they do exist, but are just seen as dopey/slow.
    No, they get persecuted and excommunicated for spreading deviant thought.
    A war in ignorance will surely get you killed for challenging conventional beliefs.
    Like gallieo and charles darwin.
    some survived and went to write books in exclusion though.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by yenom View Post
    No, they get persecuted and excommunicated for spreading deviant thought.
    A war in ignorance will surely get you killed for challenging conventional beliefs.
    Like gallieo and charles darwin.
    some survived and went to write books in exclusion though.
    30% of the world population didn't get persecuted or write books. 99% of that 30% would have been illiterate and perhaps never leave their village.

  4. #74
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    True, a specific advance can come from a general idea. But in those societies, was/is there a possibility for abstract thinking, from which the N could then draw their ideas for application to concrete reality?
    What do you mean? I'm sure there was plenty of idle time, actually forcibly so...
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  5. #75
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Your arguement is like saying before clocks and calendars were invented there were no Js. It might be possible.

    But nevertheless, we all have to find a way to adapt to society.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    What do you mean? I'm sure there was plenty of idle time, actually forcibly so...
    Well I am assuming you need some kind of education/access to information to think abstactly.

    Can people have thoughts which they don't have the language to express?

    And if so, will they ever be able to develop them in a healthy way?

    As far as I can see, iNtuitives either did not develop, or were tortured in a world which could not support their preferred means of thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by yenom View Post
    Your arguement is like saying before clocks and calendars were invented there were no Js. It might be possible.

    But nevertheless, we all have to find a way to adapt to society.
    I don't think so. Those societies would have permitted organization regardless of technology.

    What I am not sure they could support, is abstract thinking.

  7. #77
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    "We"...pride in group identity...very Fe.
    Then you have missed all the so-called INTJs in this forum who have used 'The Royal We' so many times, one would strain themselves counting.
    You blew off Salomé's question: What is the point of your argument?

    What is it?

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Then you have missed all the so-called INTJs in this forum who have used 'The Royal We' so many times, one would strain themselves counting.
    You blew off Salomé's question: What is the point of your argument?

    What is it?
    I did not make an argument, I asked a question. Which is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    I often wondered how does this work?

    i.e. you were born a serf in medieval Europe.

    Or in a village in Somalia/Afghanistan/Pakistan etc. today.

    If you were an iNtuitive, would you simply be less effective at surviving, i.e. essentially a slightly slower less "on the ball" version of the people around you?

    Or would iNtuition simply not develop in people in those situations at all?

    ...

    So my point is, 1.) does iNtution in the sense of ABSTRACT THINKING only emerge in relatively wealthy comfortable surrounding? And 2.) Does this mean that N's just don't exist in barbaric times/countries, or that they do exist, but are just seen as dopey/slow.
    For clarification: when I say develop I do not mean "exist". I mean "develop" in the typological sense of becoming a "healthy" function.

  9. #79
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    Burn the witch, kill the infidels, praise the creator, etc


    In my opinion, man has struggled PAST abstract thinking. It's the concrete thinkers that likely found their environment fucked.


    Edit: but perhaps I'm falling outside the bounds MBTI has drawn up, yet again.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Burn the witch, kill the infidels, praise the creator, etc


    In my opinion, man has struggled PAST abstract thinking. It's the concrete thinkers that likely found their environment fucked.


    Edit: but perhaps I'm falling outside the bounds MBTI has drawn up, yet again.
    Is that abstract thinking or just brainwashing/ignorance?

    I don't think you can conclude thought process from the end result. A Sensor can still believe in a non-empirical theory, just like a T can have a worldview based ultimately on feelings (I argue that we all do, but that's another story).

    We are all irrational, some are just more skilled 'post factum' rationalizers.

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