iNtuition in a state of barbarism?

[KDude]

No it comes from latin through "intuire" which means "looking inside" (into - looking).

Jung used two different german words (can't remember them now), but one connonated the above, but his other concept of intuition was for Ne.. I think the root of the word had something to do with rainfall. As in, something from the outside pouring down, like rain.

 

[Cellmold]

What typologists, what countries, what period of 'the past'?

You want proof now?! Outrageous!

Actually I was lying, I just wanted to appear as if I had something to say. The only person I can think of who alluded to a sensory culture was Lenore Thompson.

The rest of it was my own idea which ive been considering. Especially if you look at the Renaissance and to a lesser extent the industrial revolution that stemmed from this and the large amount of ideas and inventions, especially during these periods, you could say for a brief time Intuition ruled and new initiatives were flying out.

Painful to mention as I am not an Intuitive, (I am not ENTJ AH MAK BIZNIZ).

 

[KDude]

You want proof now?! Outrageous!

Actually I was lying, I just wanted to appear as if I had something to say. The only person I can think of who alluded to a sensory culture was Lenore Thompson.

The rest of it was my own idea which ive been considering. Especially if you look at the Renaissance and to a lesser extent the industrial revolution that stemmed from this and the large amount of ideas and inventions, especially during these periods, you could say for a brief time Intuition ruled and new initiatives were flying out.

Painful to mention as I am not an Intuitive, (I am not ENTJ AH MAK BIZNIZ).

The renaissance wasn't necessarily intuitively driven either. Europe, especially Italy, lived amongst preexisting Roman constructions and artwork. People had lost a lot of the techniques and skill from the classical age, but they had to live every day seeing the results, growing up seeing that the past was actually more advanced than they were. This started driving artisans to investigate and reverse engineer what it was all about. I think some classical books were having a resurgence as well, and that had the same effect. So a lot of it came from observation.

 

[Cellmold]

The renaissance wasn't necessarily intuitively driven either. Europe, especially Italy, lived amongst preexisting Roman constructions and artwork. People had lost a lot of the techniques and skill from the classical age, but they had to live every day seeing the results, growing up seeing that the past was actually more advanced than they were. This started driving artisans to investigate and reverse engineer what it was all about. I think some classical books were having a resurgence as well, and that had the same effect. So a lot of it came from observation.

Lies and slander! It was the N's I say!! The N's!

 

[KDude]

Lies and slander! It was the N's I say!! The N's!

Heh. Da Vinci, for sure. For others, it's probably across the board. I think even Michaelangelo was a sensor (ISFP probably). He had a ground up approach, strictly through his hands. "Every block of stone has a statue inside it and it is the task of the sculptor to discover it."

 

[Standuble]

Sounds a bit like Ne and Si together.

They work as part of a team. Same as Ni and Se.

 

[Cellmold]

Heh. Da Vinci, for sure. For others, it's probably across the board. I think even Michaelangelo was a sensor (ISFP probably). He had a ground up approach, strictly through his hands. "Every block of stone has a statue inside it and it is the task of the sculptor to discover it."

Well i'll be serious for a moment and admit that it was just an idea and I agree more or less that there were many hands in the pot that spawned such progress.

There has to be. Otherwise what use would we all be? But it was only an idle idea based on a theory that relies on heuristics and dario nardi's penis scans.

 

[KDude]

Well i'll be serious for a moment and admit that it was just an idea and I agree more or less that there were many hands in the pot that spawned such progress.

There has to be. Otherwise what use would we all be? But it was only an idle idea based on a theory that relies on heuristics and dario nardi's penis scans.

Fair enough. I'm just giving you food for thought.

 

[FDG]

The renaissance wasn't necessarily intuitively driven either. Europe, especially Italy, lived amongst preexisting Roman constructions and artwork. People had lost a lot of the techniques and skill from the classical age, but they had to live every day seeing the results, growing up seeing that the past was actually more advanced than they were. This started driving artisans to investigate and reverse engineer what it was all about. I think some classical books were having a resurgence as well, and that had the same effect. So a lot of it came from observation.

How does intuition not come from observation?

 

[KDude]

How does intuition not come from observation?

It's more that it's observation that led to recreation. Rather than using observation to go in entirely new directions. At least at first (I mean, there are different renaissance periods). They lamented what was lost, not what has never been. Some of it sounds like pretty boring "detail work" too. Brunelleschi was among the first to go through roman ruins and spent years studying them. There were already books being written promoting the classical age, but being merely inspired was not good enough. An intuitive movement would get the ball rolling with just inspiration. He wanted to recapture the past instead.

 

[FDG]

Yeah, makes sense.

 

[Salomé]

INxx would generally be much more prudent than ESxx types when interacting with the world (they still are in today's society), so what they may lose in terms of quick real world effectiveness, they gain from avoiding danger.

You are contrasting introversion v extroversion - this is unrelated to intuition.
Kagan (I think?) suggested that introversion evolved as a response to colder climates.

I often wondered how does this work?

i.e. you were born a serf in medieval Europe.

Or in a village in Somalia/Afghanistan/Pakistan etc. today.

If you were an iNtuitive, would you simply be less effective at surviving, i.e. essentially a slightly slower less "on the ball" version of the people around you?

Or would iNtuition simply not develop in people in those situations at all?

Glossing over for a moment your potentially inflammatory ideas about what constitutes a "barbaric" society... I think we have all the evidence we need to answer this question purely based on the distribution of type today. Clearly, through much of human history favouring Sensing has been advantageous to survival and breeding success. But since intuition is wired into the human neocortex (our brains have not changed significantly since the Pleistocene) it's nonsensical to suggest it wouldn't appear at all.
Intuition is principally about predictive intelligence, spotting patterns, predicting outcomes, linking ideas. So clearly it offers advantages when it comes to strategising, categorising, tool invention etc. I.e. those things which enhance the success of the species or the group, sometimes over that of the individual.

 

[INTP]

i think intuition would be very useful in primitives, especially in hunter gatherers. the ability to intuitively perceive your surroundings(Ne) or intuitively form conclusions about sense perceptions(Ni) is essential in hunting(i think INTJs would do best if thrown in the wilderness with only the information on how to survive). ENTPs on the other hand would probably be best at figuring out stuff like how to build traps(and where to place them), more efficient spears, how to ambush prey etc. but luckily there is a good hunting method for sensors aswell:

also jung thought that primitive psychology was less differentiated than ours today, resulting in sensing and intuition being more tied together, intuitions being more concretistic and mixing up with the sense perceptions.

 

[Salomé]

i think INTJs would do best if thrown in the wilderness with only the information on how to survive

Doubtful. Unless they had minions to command. INTJs almost certainly invented hierarchical society.

 

[Il Morto Che Parla]

It depends, if you're a peasant with a tendency towards wondering about the deeper causes of why your harvest changes, or who becomes good at observing weather patterns etc., you might very well develop an advantage through other means (different, peculiar agricultural methods, foresight, etc.).

I'm not sure about this.

Knowing about farming requires concrete knowledge and understanding.

A sensor does not just live in the moment and not think about things. They would surely be equally, if not more, effective at the practical and effective running of a farm, and knowing and understanding in depth about how to make it work better.

This is why SJ's and SP's, at least IMO, are just as likely to be able to run a business as an N. Because you need "big picture", true, but this can be easily built from concrete knowledge, by an intelligent person.

For me the N would be more naturally to think about unrealistic and impractical ideas. which is a great advantage in an academic world, but not in such a world as I described.

 

[Il Morto Che Parla]

i think intuition would be very useful in primitives, especially in hunter gatherers. the ability to intuitively perceive your surroundings(Ne) or intuitively form conclusions about sense perceptions(Ni) is essential in hunting

Sounds like Se to me

http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/Cognitive-Functions/Extraverted-Sensing.cfm

Extraverted Sensing occurs when we become aware of what is in the physical world in rich detail.

We notice relevant facts and occurrences in a sea of data and experiences, learning all the facts we can about the immediate context or area of focus and what goes on in that context.

The process involves instantly reading cues to see how far we can go in a situation and still get the impact we want or respond to the situation with presence.

The highlighted is the kind "intuition", not iNtuition, which it sounds like you're refering to.

 

[INTP]

Doubtful. Unless they had minions to command. INTJs almost certainly invented hierarchical society.

why?

i mean that Se surely would help, even tho its inferior and Ni represses part of it, Ni only represses the parts that are not relevant. this would cause better concentration to sensory input on essentials in tracking the pray and Ni would obviously be the best at drawing conclusions on things like what direction the pray most likely took if you lost it tracks for a moment. also Te would be much more suitable on this than Ti would, because its faster and well, you only need to use simple thinking based on past experiences on this sort of stuff. F would obviously be useless as dom/aux, but that tert Fi striving to gain for self(as opposed to others) would become handy.

i think ENTPs would be pretty much on par with INTJs, except that INTJ might be more patient and not make so much rash decisions or take risks on things like when to start chasing fast, which obviously has a risk of you tiring yourself out and not being able to continue tiring down the pray in constant phase.

also i think many INTJs suffer from add(and/or try to find stimulation from fast phased computer games) for this exact reason that they are missing this sort of hands on doing(to which they developed in evolution). also i discussed about this few times with my INTJ friend(who doesent care to know what INTJ is) and we both came to the conclusion that his temperament fits better living in the woods as people lived in neanderthal times.

 

[KDude]

Just watch Mad Max. You'll see the types play out their primitive roles. Humongous is ENFJ, Tina Turner ENTJ, Max is ISTP, the Feral Kid ISFP, the helicopter dude is ENTP... Just about everyone else dies.

 

[Il Morto Che Parla]

[MENTION=5143]Salomé[/MENTION] - I screwed up the quote marks, but see below!

Glossing over for a moment your potentially inflammatory ideas about what constitutes a "barbaric" society...

/Fe

Sorry I could not resist that given past discussion of whether INTP's have Fe as 4th function

Inflammatory =/= undesirable.

I think we have all the evidence we need to answer this question purely based on the distribution of type today. Clearly, through much of human history favouring Sensing has been advantageous to survival and breeding success. But since intuition is wired into the human neocortex (our brains have not changed significantly since the Pleistocene) it's nonsensical to suggest it wouldn't appear at all.
Intuition is principally about predictive intelligence, spotting patterns, predicting outcomes, linking ideas. So clearly it offers advantages when it comes to strategising, categorising, tool invention etc. I.e. those things which enhance the success of the species or the group, sometimes over that of the individual.

I have no argument with any of this. I never said iNtution would not exist, as you say, if we accept the Cognitive Fucntions model as the framework of our discussion, that would be a stupid thing to say.

I said, how would iNtutivies - i.e. dom or aux - develop, if at all.

 

[INTP]

Sounds like Se to me

http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/Cognitive-Functions/Extraverted-Sensing.cfm



The highlighted is the kind "intuition", not iNtuition, which it sounds like you're refering to.

Im referring to this:

"Although this(introverted) intuition may receive its impetus from outer objects, it is never arrested by the external possibilities, but stays with that factor which the outer object releases within."

"Not the strongest sensation, in the physiological sense, obtains the crucial value, but any sensation whatsoever whose value happens to become considerably enhanced by reason of the (extraverted)intuitive's unconscious attitude.

Just as extraverted sensation strives to reach the highest pitch of actuality, because only thus can the appearance of a complete life be created, so (extraverted)intuition tries to encompass the greatest possibilities, since only through the awareness of possibilities is intuition fully satisfied. Intuition seeks to discover possibilities in the objective situation"

-Jung

and i dont understand why you would think im referring to things like 'can i jump over that puddle without wetting my feet'..