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  1. #11
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Intuition in the truly Jungian sense is precisely not abstract thinking.

    But to still try to give this thread some meaningful feedback........ no matter what human society we are talking about, there will be no intuition without sensation and no sensation without intuition. They exist because of themselves. A medieval surf is still going to either lean towards believing what his senses bring or inclined to "see without seeing" relative to other people.

    It's important to keep this in mind to analyze even more ancient societies like that of the hunter-gatherers, and not draw bizarre conclusions like they must've all been sensors because they needed acute literal sensing to survive. If they were at such a primitive state of mind that they would never have the option to either play up or dismiss that which can be detected by the senses, the sensing preference would not exist then either.

    This issue does get more complicated from there, but I thought I'd get that clarified from the start.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    Intuition in the truly Jungian sense is precisely not abstract thinking.
    How can you exercise Ne or Ni without abstract thinking?

    But to still try to give this thread some meaningful feedback........ no matter what human society we are talking about, there will be no intuition without sensation and no sensation without intuition. They exist because of themselves.
    Ok. My question was whether people could develop as iNtuitives in such scenarios as I said, and if so, how this would work out for them. I didn't say anything about iNtution not existing, as obviously, for the whole framework to be meaningful, it would have to.

    though of course it's also possible that the framework is not meaningful, which is a logical question arising from this chain of reaosning.

    A medieval surf is still going to either lean towards believing what his senses bring or inclined to "see without seeing" relative to other people.
    I don't like that definition of iNtuition.

    Thinking "for some reaosn I don't trust that guy" is not iNtution, or else most of the sensors I know, would be iNtutives. Everyone does that.

    For it to be meaningful to me, iNtution means abstract thinking, i.e the serf is wondering about whether there God created Lords and Serfs, or whether man created them against Gods will, and if so, hwo does this fit with an omnipotent God etc.

    On the other hand thinkign "this potato looks like it would taste crap, IDK know why but I know it", would not be iNtuition.

    And yes I know that serfs did sometimes think about those things - hence they had revolts - but what could they really think liek that day to day, when they didn't have any kind of educational framework for it, or even the language to express those concepts, no outlet for it. and plus being distracted like that would just make you quite slow and idiotic in a world depending on such detail.

    So my question being, if we accept that such an iNtuitive "function" exists inherently, could it be suppressed in a persons development in such an environment meaning that nobody would develop as N and instead they would have it as a tert or inferior function?

    Or if not, and if N's did exist, were they just "idiots"?

    I know I restated myself, but apparently, it was necessarry.

    It's important to keep this in mind to analyze even more ancient societies like that of the hunter-gatherers, and not draw bizarre conclusions like they must've all been sensors because they needed acute literal sensing to survive. If they were at such a primitive state of mind that they would never have the option to either play up or dismiss that which can be detected by the senses, the sensing preference would not exist then either.
    The bizzare conclusion is not mine.

    Firstly, typology is not accepted as science and therefore it is reasonable to think that the exterior symptoms which typology attempts to explain, may be the cause of other factors eg environment. Or if that is too extreme, it is at least a reaosnable question to think that CF development may be affected by environment.

    Next, it is bizzarre to think that being a Sensor means you " do not have the option to either play up or dismiss that which can be detected by the senses", to use your own words.

    For two reasons, firstly because even if they were all sensors, they would still have iNtuition as a tertiary or inferior function. So I think you strawmanned me there.

    Second, because Se and Si is not simply seeing/hearing/touching, but rather taking information in a concrete manner.

    Like I said, every person I know, can have intuition in the daily sense of the word, i.e. "I don't like the look of that guy", it's not the same Jungian iNtuition, at least not in my understanding (and if so, then the term becomes pretty meaningless). To be honest I thnk that is more to do with judging functions. F's in general are more likely to think in such a way, hence the reason why in popular language, "intuition" and "feeling" are often synonymous.

  3. #13
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    How can you exercise Ne or Ni without abstract thinking?
    By seeing without seeing.


    Ok. My question was whether people could develop as iNtuitives in such scenarios as I said, and if so, how this would work out for them. I didn't say anything about iNtution not existing, as obviously, for the whole framework to be meaningful, it would have to.
    Understood. Yeah, I don't really have an answer to that question.... I don't quite have a grasp on what it would mean to "develop as intuitive."


    I don't like that definition of iNtuition.

    Thinking "for some reaosn I don't trust that guy" is not iNtution, or else most of the sensors I know, would be iNtutives. Everyone does that.
    Yes, "everyone does that" because everyone has intuition. It's a person's relationship to their intuition that defines type. Having those sort of raw and often negative insights is common for the intuition of sensing types.


    For it to be meaningful to me, iNtution means abstract thinking, i.e the serf is wondering about whether there God created Lords and Serfs, or whether man created them against Gods will, and if so, hwo does this fit with an omnipotent God etc.
    This almost sounds more like it's coming from Ti........ anyway, this is a specific, complex sort of thinking that some intuitives don't have and some sensors do.


    On the other hand thinkign "this potato looks like it would taste crap, IDK know why but I know it", would not be iNtuition.
    Yeah, that almost sounds like more of a Si sort of statement, because it is very likely bringing in past impressions, knowingly or not.


    And yes I know that serfs did sometimes think about those things - hence they had revolts - but what could they really think liek that day to day, when they didn't have any kind of educational framework for it, or even the language to express those concepts, no outlet for it. and plus being distracted like that would just make you quite slow and idiotic in a world depending on such detail.

    So my question being, if we accept that such an iNtuitive "function" exists inherently, could it be suppressed in a persons development in such an environment meaning that nobody would develop as N and instead they would have it as a tert or inferior function?

    Or if not, and if N's did exist, were they just "idiots"?
    Yeah lack of ways to develop would just create idiotic Ns (and idiotic Ss). The preference remains even when there is no outlet.


    The bizzare conclusion is not mine.
    I know it isn't, I've just seen enough of these conversations to know that this is probably going to come up.


    Firstly, typology is not accepted as science and therefore it is reasonable to think that the exterior symptoms which typology attempts to explain, may be the cause of other factors eg environment. Or if that is too extreme, it is at least a reaosnable question to think that CF development may be affected by environment.
    That's a big ole can o' worms there.


    Next, it is bizzarre to think that being a Sensor means you " do not have the option to either play up or dismiss that which can be detected by the senses", to use your own words.

    For two reasons, firstly because even if they were all sensors, they would still have iNtuition as a tertiary or inferior function. So I think you strawmanned me there.

    Second, because Se and Si is not simply seeing/hearing/touching, but rather taking information in a concrete manner.
    You wouldn't be able to determine the type of someone without that option, you could only determine if they were a sensor if they showed a preference towards the senses when also presented intuition.....


    Like I said, every person I know, can have intuition in the daily sense of the word, i.e. "I don't like the look of that guy", it's not the same Jungian iNtuition, at least not in my understanding (and if so, then the term becomes pretty meaningless). To be honest I thnk that is more to do with judging functions. F's in general are more likely to think in such a way, hence the reason why in popular language, "intuition" and "feeling" are often synonymous.
    It doesn't make the term meaningless because an intuitive type has a much more complex consciousness of intuition than any other type.

  4. #14
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    If that was my destiny for life - as it would be for a Medieval peasant or a person in a 3rd world village today - yeah I might adapt to survive, like I have done, but I'd still be at a disadvantage compared to a natural.
    It depends, if you're a peasant with a tendency towards wondering about the deeper causes of why your harvest changes, or who becomes good at observing weather patterns etc., you might very well develop an advantage through other means (different, peculiar agricultural methods, foresight, etc.).

    Another example, I play football (soccer), and while I am good, my inability to focus fully on it means I will never be as consistent as others or be able to go to the "next level" in such a field. Because I can be very good at the basics but I have not got the focus to learn truly great new skills that would make me stand out.
    Most people have this problem with football or any sport for the matter, you're mistaken if you try to associate that with MBTI functions.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    By seeing without seeing.

    *thinks abstractly about it*

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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    *thinks abstractly about it*
    Try thinking of it as invisible/stealth camo wires joining together two items due to some shared trait e.g. the table and the pet Cat because they both have four legs. That's Ne but Ni also makes abstractions and connecions between incoming data.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    *thinks abstractly about it*
    Try thinking of it as invisible/stealth camo wires joining together two items due to some shared trait e.g. the table and the pet Cat because they both have four legs. That's Ne but Ni also makes abstractions and connecions between incoming data.

  8. #18
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Try thinking of it as invisible/stealth camo wires joining together two items due to some shared trait e.g. the table and the pet Cat because they both have four legs.
    Sounds a bit like Ne and Si together.

  9. #19
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    In my humble estimation, intuition in a Jungian sense can't exist without sensing, and nor can sensing without intuition. So in a state of barbarism, you'd do just as the sensors do only with less immediate facility and interest. But they, likewise, would do just as you do, but in their own way. Gifts, as they say, would differ.

    The root of the word "intuition", or so I am informed by the Internet, is tueri, to protect. It seems like guessing ahead of time what's going to happen next or what something may mean would be at least a little bit useful.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  10. #20
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    The root of the word "intuition", or so I am informed by the Internet, is tueri, to protect. It seems like guessing ahead of time what's going to happen next or what something may mean would be at least a little bit useful.
    No it comes from latin through "intuire" which means "looking inside" (into - looking).
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

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