Inferior Fe vs. Fi

[greenfairy]

So...how do you tell the difference between inferior Fe overreaction and (dom/aux) Fi sensitivity?

 

[Such Irony]

I'm guessing that inferior Fe externalizes the feelings more when hurt. The inferior Fe is more likely to cry, yell, and scream at others or do physical things to vent anger like slam doors. The inferior Fi ruminates more on the inside about how they were hurt and how no one understands them and how worthless they are.

 

[KDude]

Fe would be attached to some percieved, outside sense of respect. If there's disrespect towards them, the retaliation could be easily apparent, but I think the "meltdown" can be subtle sometimes too. Like, for example, if an INTP's ideas or competence were criticized in a public forum or a journal. They might not show anything on their face, but maybe they'll just fester and spend time writing letters or internet replies against their opponents. Soon enough, they're spending hours on it this bullshit, pacing around and imagining different things these assholes are saying. And maybe they lose their usual composure and write with emotionally charged or scathing language. Se might not address it that way. Especially younger Se types, who will do something direct and dish out violence instead.

OTOH, Fe can be an everyday thing that isn't so bad. Sometimes if I know a certain atmosphere or someone I respect "expects" me to be on my best behavior, I kind of choose my approach more carefully. It gets frustrating though if I can't be natural or I'm second guessing myself. I have to get away before I start resenting it. "Superior Fe" probably remains more consistent with their behavior and relationships. I don't understand the "stamina" there. There's no resentment. It's open door policy.

 

[Eric B]

What it seems like, is that the inferior will be what the feelings of hurt will come through, and then the reaction will be its "shadow" (the opposite attitude), which could be the "Demonic Personality", or the "Crow's Nest" (right/left brain alternative) depending on the version of theory. According to Jung, functions work in sort of "loops" between attitudes, anyway, starting from the primary attitude, flowing to the opposite, and then returning to the primary. (i.e. going back and forth between "subject" and "object").
I've experienced what [MENTION=9214]KDude[/MENTION] described, and it was interpreted as "Fi", and you can see it that way, but it really stemmed from inferior Fe.

Inferior Fi (such as the people I've dealt with, including one claiming to be another type), seems to be insulted by people seen as crossing some line connected with an internal value (such as invading their "turf" or something), and you can't tell they're upset, but then they begin snarking at you, and finally unleash Fe-like attacks against your standing in the group. ("destructive" archetype).
This is what I keep pointing out about figures like Hitler. Everyone looks at him, and sees him "using" all this "Fe", but it's how it's coming across that is a clue as to where it falls.

 

[greenfairy]

[MENTION=9214]KDude[/MENTION]: Omg, this describes me perfectly. Which was only the indirect point of the thread, but still. (I mean, the question came up because a lot of what I read about what might upset a sensitive Fi dominant person might also apply to inferior Fe, but I do want to know the answer independently of how it might apply to me.)

That's very interesting, [MENTION=3521]Eric B[/MENTION].

Also I was really talking about inferior Fe versus dominant/auxiliary Fi, not inferior Fi. I should clarify that in the OP now. Just because, as I said above, Fi doms are all sensitive and stuff, and inferior Fe is sensitive, so there could be some confusion. Like sensitivity in relationships is one of the marks of inferior Fe, but I can imagine IXFP's also being sensitive in relationships- so I guess it goes to what you said, about what it is they're sensitive about.

 

[Giggly]

Oh dear, not this again. *hides*

 

[Eric B]

So basically, you're comparing ITP to FP.
Dom. or aux Fi will be "mature" and inward focused, while inferior Fe will be very "vulnerable" and outward focused. I don't really know enough FP's to compare with dom./aux. but I'm familiar with tertiary Fi. (ITJ).
Like my parents insisting I'm supposed to draw sel-worth from within, but to me, it was ludicrous. You need to be accepted by others to feel good about yourself, yet that was very difficult, and I didn't have the personality to command more acceptance. But my parents insisted you can't rely on others, you have to believe in you. None of us knew about type, so it was just attributed to me just being too "afraid of life".
The tertiary is itself also immature, but still of more use to the ego than the inferior. So any Fi descriptions of "screw everyone else, just focus on what's important to me" are reflecting a TJ's perspective of the function, based on how it plays out within their ego.
Dom. or aux will hold on to important values, but these are usually flexible enough to try to accomodate or work with others. FP's are both "role-informative" and "motive focused". So they are sensitive to to others, but it is internally based. Like an example commonly given is "Is how I'm relating to the other person true to who I am/what I believe?" I could never reason like that most of the time; it was all based on fear of some reaction from the other person (externally based). The FP might have a fear of rejection as well, but it's probably more from lack of "congruence", like "if they're rejecting me, is it because I'm doing something wrong"?

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Wondered this myself. I'm with an INFP and his feelings are very much internalized and he would sacrifice himself before hurting someone else. Whoever said self-blame is common, thats right on. I see him as an emotional person but not very sensitive. He is very mature about people and dealing with them. I see myself the opposite way. I dont have much day to day "emotions" like he does but when something upsets me it's harder for me to shake off and I don't internalize it. In fact, it's difficult to do that. I have to do something about it.

Inferior Fe when apparent is childlike in emotion and usually shows itself (when negative) under major stress. So IP inferior Fe (negative) isn't going to be shown until its too late. The positive is only shown when trust is proven. Dom/aux Fi is always apparent and much more mature.

But when positive Fe is shown it can look very much like Fi Dom/aux behavior. However, it is reserved for special few. Dom Fi is much more generous.

 

[skylights]

Here's my impression as a Fi aux living with an INTP dad and ISTP brother -

The difference is my ISTP little brother getting pissed at me because I wasn't subtle enough responding to him when he told me something about him smoking pot that afternoon, while our mom was nearby, versus ENFP me getting pissed at him because he insults my character for not paying enough attention to modifying my responses to keep him safe from external danger (which, in my mind, he brought upon himself by raising the subject in the room right next to her, and by smoking in the first place).

It is external dynamic Fe versus internal static Fi. He's upset because I'm not very good at attending to the external interpersonal factors, even though I'm willingly engaging in interpersonal exchange. I'm upset because he's placing responsibility on me for walking an ethical line that I don't particularly understand, and then insulting my character for what I see as behavior - two very different things. He felt like I was purposefully endangering him - not caring enough about the outside dynamic factors. I felt like he put himself out there and then tried to blame me for any negative consequences - not caring enough about the internal static factors.

Just because, as I said above, Fi doms are all sensitive and stuff, and inferior Fe is sensitive, so there could be some confusion.

Right. Fi dom/aux are sensitive about their "character", their "goodness", their emotions as a means of internal processing, what things mean to themselves. Fi doms are especially concerned about their right to have their own ideas and experiences and for those to be accepted as valid. Fe inf are sensitive about how you behave around them, what you say around/about them, whether you're being respectful to them, whether you're giving attention to them. They have a surprising underlying "radar" that can flare up and accuse the other person of intentionally trying to subvert them. But I've also seen it flare up in situations where groups of people really need help - I've seen my INTP dad be a gracious, welcoming, and effusive host during his own brother's funeral, and I've seen my ISTP brother be a social support pillar for his friends when someone had gone missing. The inferior function often seems quite competent when push comes to shove, just very erratic and unpredictable. Logically so - it's the conscious mind's final line of defense.

 

[Istbkleta]

This is a wonderful post! I enjoyed reading it so much, I had to reply and say this is the post I have enjoyed THE MOST in this thread and in general.

character for what I see as behavior - two very different things.

Please tell me more how you saw the situation. I'm not sure I really understand some of the implications. I would love to hear more!

Keep writing. It's like you touched on some really deep stuff here

 

[skylights]

This is a wonderful post! I enjoyed reading it so much, I had to reply and say this is the post I have enjoyed THE MOST in this thread and in general.

Please tell me more how you saw the situation. I'm not sure I really understand some of the implications. I would love to hear more!

Keep writing. It's like you touched on some really deep stuff here

Well thank you!!

I think that to me, I think of each person's responsibility being to take care of themself and their own actions, speech, and behavior, but I'm not very well-attuned to gauging how other people would feel about things. When my little brother struck up a conversation about smoking, which is illegal where we live and not explicitly approved of by our parents, I responded, but I didn't really think about who might be around to hear. He started the conversation, and he's the one committing the "bad" deed. I don't see it as my responsibility to protect him from any fallout from either of those things (though I would like to help him, since he's my brother). Still - not something I have a moral obligation to do.

He, on the other hand, was infuriated that I wasn't keeping an eye out for him. He thought I was deliberately messing him up, being stupid, and being careless. IMO, if he was concerned about people hearing, he shouldn't have started the conversation in the first place. But to him, I think he assumes that it's part of interaction that you attend to who's around and adjust your volume level accordingly. He sees that as a moral obligation, while I don't. In contrast, he has no problem mocking my character, which I see as a "serious" insult, while he sees it as an insignificant one.

So I think Fi puts more value and more weight on judgment of the self and personal freedom - one's character is to be measured. Fe seems to put more value and more weight on judgment of action and interpersonal cause and effect - one's behavior is to be measured. For Fi dom/aux and Fe inf interacting, this can mean that the IxTP accidentally insults the FP's character while the FP accidentally makes the IxTP feel exposed. Many F rules are "unwritten" but we hold transgressions against each other because we think they indicate intention to harm.

 

[htb]

Inferior Fe is like MUNGO HEARD YOU LIKE FLOWERS, SO PULLED UP WHOLE CHERRY BLOSSOM TREE.

Inferior Fi is like you know when the sun's behind clouds, and you can hear the glittering points across a perigean starfield resonating with WHN's broadcasts of Alan King? That's how I feel right now.

 

[greenfairy]

Inferior Fe is like MUNGO HEARD YOU LIKE FLOWERS, SO PULLED UP WHOLE CHERRY BLOSSOM TREE.

Inferior Fi is like you know when the sun's behind clouds, and you can hear the glittering points across a perigean starfield resonating with WHN's broadcasts of Alan King? That's how I feel right now.

Haha. By this I should be ENTJ.

 

[Redbone]

Inferior Fe is like MUNGO HEARD YOU LIKE FLOWERS, SO PULLED UP WHOLE CHERRY BLOSSOM TREE.

Guilty.

 

[Istbkleta]

[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] I'm bouncing off of what you said,

We are all responsible for making ourselves happy, and we owe ourselves that, and I'm giving you so much room to do what you need to do to be happy, why are you now mad at me for making yourself miserable?

 

[greenfairy]

So I think Fi puts more value and more weight on judgment of the self and personal freedom - one's character is to be measured. Fe seems to put more value and more weight on judgment of action and interpersonal cause and effect - one's behavior is to be measured. For Fi dom/aux and Fe inf interacting, this can mean that the IxTP accidentally insults the FP's character while the FP accidentally makes the IxTP feel exposed. Many F rules are "unwritten" but we hold transgressions against each other because we think they indicate intention to harm.

I think this is true. Although sources have mentioned Fe putting a lot of emphasis on character, but I think as a reflection of behavior. And inf. Fe attacks character under stress. I suppose inf. Fi would do it, but would have a different flavor. I think Fe focuses on standards and accepted behavior, and judges character accordingly. In my experience Fe dom can be very critical of character.

 

[Entropic]

I'm guessing that inferior Fe externalizes the feelings more when hurt. The inferior Fe is more likely to cry, yell, and scream at others or do physical things to vent anger like slam doors. The inferior Fi ruminates more on the inside about how they were hurt and how no one understands them and how worthless they are.

Not quite. Externalization doesn't mean to openly express feelings generally speaking, but that they extrovert their feelings on say, other people.

As a general point not directed at anyone, a simple scenario to exemplify Fe and Fi would be that we have person A who is married to person B but decides to suddenly break up with person B. Person C is friends with person A and B, and reacts differently depending on whether C is an Fe or Fi valuing type. If C is an Fe type, the argumentation will look something like this:

A: I am going to break up with B. I don't like being in this marraige anymore.
C: Why? Did you ever think of what B is feeling? What about the children? What do you think they will feel when you tell them?

If C is an Fi type, the reaction will be very different:

A: A: I am going to break up with B. I don't like being in this marraige anymore.
C: Why? I don't think you should break up with B. You're married with children, who is going to take care of them if you break up?

Understand the differences in the reasoning process even though they arrive at exactly the same conclusion. In scenario Fe, we see how the feeling is extroverted because the evaluative process includes that of other people, how the husband and the children will feel. In scenario Fi, we see how the opposite occurs and how the ethical logic is based on personal feeling of what the person thinks is right than whether something is right according to others.

 

[greenfairy]

Not quite. Externalization doesn't mean to openly express feelings generally speaking, but that they extrovert their feelings on say, other people.

As a general point not directed at anyone, a simple scenario to exemplify Fe and Fi would be that we have person A who is married to person B but decides to suddenly break up with person B. Person C is friends with person A and B, and reacts differently depending on whether C is an Fe or Fi valuing type. If C is an Fe type, the argumentation will look something like this:

A: I am going to break up with B. I don't like being in this marraige anymore.
C: Why? Did you ever think of what B is feeling? What about the children? What do you think they will feel when you tell them?

If C is an Fi type, the reaction will be very different:

A: A: I am going to break up with B. I don't like being in this marraige anymore.
C: Why? I don't think you should break up with B. You're married with children, who is going to take care of them if you break up?

Understand the differences in the reasoning process even though they arrive at exactly the same conclusion. In scenario Fe, we see how the feeling is extroverted because the evaluative process includes that of other people, how the husband and the children will feel. In scenario Fi, we see how the opposite occurs and how the ethical logic is based on personal feeling of what the person thinks is right than whether something is right according to others.

I can see some people not even reacting with those; I for example would just say "Ok" and then find out whether they were a good match, and if they weren't, let them work out who was going to take care of the children. I kind of see what you are saying though. I probably would have said that Fe would be concerned for the welfare of the children and Fi would just focus on how A and B were feeling, or just on how A is feeling. Which would make me Fi, but whatever.

I was really asking though about the difference between Fi (dom/aux) and inferior Fe, as in, if you have a response which seems to fit Fe as an inferior function, but that could also sort of look like Fi dom/aux how you would tell the difference.

I'm not exactly sure what your point in the other thread was about, so I'm going to request you explain it a bit more here if you don't mind; unless you already did in your previous post.

 

[Entropic]

I can see some people not even reacting with those; I for example would just say "Ok" and then find out whether they were a good match, and if they weren't, let them work out who was going to take care of the children. I kind of see what you are saying though.

If you are concerned finding out whether they are a good fit it's probably indicative of extroverted feeling because you do not operate on whether you think they are a good fit but you are trying to see it from their feeling perspective in order to evaluate the situation properly. Of course, it doesn't have to be this simple as it depends on why you'd be interested to know whether they are a good fit, but as a whole, it seems more Fe than Fi.

I probably would have said that Fe would be concerned for the welfare of the children and Fi would just focus on how A and B were feeling, or just on how A is feeling. Which would make me Fi, but whatever.

Then you didn't understand what I was trying to say. Fe is about understanding the feelings of others and judging those feelings based on objectively agreed standards whether they are good or bad and act on that. Fi does not do this because Fi is introverted. Fi and Fe can externally look similar or achieve the same results but Fi types don't care about what you are feeling as a person as much as they care about what they are feeling themselves:

I was really asking though about the difference between Fi (dom/aux) and inferior Fe, as in, if you have a response which seems to fit Fe as an inferior function, but that could also sort of look like Fi dom/aux how you would tell the difference.

No, this logic is not correct. I do not believe that functions can merge and look like another function. That just simply shows poor understanding of the functions and identifying them as such.

I'm not exactly sure what your point in the other thread was about, so I'm going to request you explain it a bit more here if you don't mind; unless you already did in your previous post.

I am not sure what you mean by a "point". Your information was incorrect and the way you presented the information seemed to support a certain bias of how you see yourself which is not necessarily correct either.

 

[greenfairy]

If you are concerned finding out whether they are a good fit it's probably indicative of extroverted feeling because you do not operate on whether you think they are a good fit but you are trying to see it from their feeling perspective in order to evaluate the situation properly. Of course, it doesn't have to be this simple as it depends on why you'd be interested to know whether they are a good fit, but as a whole, it seems more Fe than Fi.

Then you didn't understand what I was trying to say. Fe is about understanding the feelings of others and judging those feelings based on objectively agreed standards whether they are good or bad and act on that. Fi does not do this because Fi is introverted. Fi and Fe can externally look similar or achieve the same results but Fi types don't care about what you are feeling as a person as much as they care about what they are feeling themselves:

I would agree with this. Yeah, I saw that video. It was helpful.

No, this logic is not correct. I do not believe that functions can merge and look like another function. That just simply shows poor understanding of the functions and identifying them as such.
I am not sure what you mean by a "point". Your information was incorrect and the way you presented the information seemed to support a certain bias of how you see yourself which is not necessarily correct either.

I wasn't implying that the functions merge and look like others. I meant that they can appear similar, and so it might be hard to identify them. I think there is a disconnect between how we are thinking. You are using Te to try to provide facts, and I am describing phenomena and trying to figure out how it works.

And I don't think there is only one correct interpretation of information, or way to understand typology.

Also I don't know what this bias of how I see myself is, so if you are going to point it out, it would be helpful to specify what it is; otherwise all I understand is you saying I'm biased. And as I can't verify it, I can either just decide you're wrong or worry, which is not helpful.