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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I ask this question because after spending time on here around Ti users who are either primary or secondary, (ENTP/INTP/ISTP/ESTP), there seems to be an element of...frustration that appears to stem from understanding what could be called an evidential truth through the logic of Ti, but which others often miss.

    I'm not sure, this is obviously just an observation skewed by my view on this, but I would like to hear from the types I mentioned and even others on this subject.
    I border between E and I most of the time, although testing more positively as E and using litmus tests such as whether or not I positively enjoy public speaking and presentations I've decided on E but I totally experience this sort of thing. Knowing something, believing it should be evident to others but their simply just not getting it or not being able to make persuasive or good cases for what they thinking instead and suggesting that others "dont get it".

    Its something more than simply not agreeing about a topic, which is one thing and fine but the fact that someone else can not and in the end simply choose not to get their head around something, decide against even bothering to seek to know and understand but instead decide that their prejudged ideas or preconceptions are more reliable in any case.

    I've thought about it a lot because a lot of the supposedly most open minded people I've met are in fact the least open minded after all, being open minded seems to only mean to give assent to their opinions, this is really, really the case among individuals who've really spent a lot of time intellectualising or rationalising their own beliefs, often adding a great deal of unnecessary complexity in the process, such as with post-modern relativism and the like, which usually mean relativity of others beliefs or beliefs they feel opposed to rather than their own beliefs which consciously or unconsciously are pretty damn inflexible.

    The other thing I've experienced is that some of the most supposedly frustrated in this way, more desiring of dialogue and clear communication, are also the most ideologically entrenched and what they mean is instead that they want agreement or resonance with others. I first encountered that in the libertarian capitalist circles at the end of the nineties and I thought it was very interesting, I definitely agreed with them that there was a lot of discussion which lacked clarity, such as talking about "free" services to the public when what was really meant was "tax funded" services, but still came up against their own version of that kind of communication barrier.

    I've read a little from Habermas about this but not a great deal, he seemed to think that if clarity was possible most social and other problems would dissolve themselves.

  2. #12
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    @Lark, you get frustrated about differences in sources of knowledge specifically. That's a Te thing. You compare and contrast varying worldviews far more than you do underlying rationale.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I ask this question because after spending time on here around Ti users who are either primary or secondary, (ENTP/INTP/ISTP/ESTP), there seems to be an element of...frustration that appears to stem from understanding what could be called an evidential truth through the logic of Ti, but which others often miss.

    I'm not sure, this is obviously just an observation skewed by my view on this, but I would like to hear from the types I mentioned and even others on this subject.
    I don't really understand your question what do you mean by "evidential" truth.

  4. #14
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    I don't really understand your question what do you mean by "evidential" truth.
    Something which, when actually consciously analysed, fits together in exactly the manner in which a Ti dom explained it. Instead of an automatic disregard of the information without putting the work in.

    Example I saw recently was to do with gender, (been a lot of discussions about it lately), anyhow one individual Ti dom pointed out that women have to either adopt masculine traits or be perceived as lesser because of a bias in most societies against what constitutes feminine tendencies. I'm obviously not doing it justice as i'm trying to sum up the core point.

    I would have liked to disagree, but upon careful consideration, looking at historical and factual evidence and examining my own experiences there is enormous amounts of evidence that matched up with this point, hence it is an evidential truth of most societies that feminine traits are indeed inherently lesser in the minds of many in those cultures.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I ask this question because after spending time on here around Ti users who are either primary or secondary, (ENTP/INTP/ISTP/ESTP), there seems to be an element of...frustration that appears to stem from understanding what could be called an evidential truth through the logic of Ti, but which others often miss.

    I'm not sure, this is obviously just an observation skewed by my view on this, but I would like to hear from the types I mentioned and even others on this subject.

    i am fine with others not seen it or countering it, but i can get incredibly frustrated if i point it out and take the time to explain my reasoning, and yet the point i am making remains unacknowledged.

    i think that by nature, since cognitive functions are information processing faculties - we all experience seen things that other people don't see. in this way, every function can be said to be a double edged sword.

    a bit closer to the metaphor, Ti is a double edged sword in the sense of 'violently assaulting' beliefs, ideas and ideals in all directions, yourself included.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Yes, to an extent. But whenever I engage with strong Ti types or observe them interacting with others, at first I don't really grasp what they are on about, however after working it over in my mind I suddenly realise just how....well....right they usually are about something.

    The evidence in what they state is often right there in front of people, but has to be examined to be seen by those not that strong in Ti.

    This is hard for me to say since it sounds like i'm sucking Ti's dick, but it's a realisation ive had whenever I have been examining some of the arguments made on here. Which isn't to say they are ALWAYS right, but they very often are. Even though right is just a perspective, when backed up by evidence that anyone can see, it does lend it a convincing edge.
    Could it be that you have Ti, but in a lower position, so that you don't pick it up right away, but when it is stated, you see their perspective, and so you are convinced? I think it may be a different situation from the point of view of a strong Te user.

    Remember it's one of Ti's primary goal to find truth (if not the goal), so they look under every nook and cranny, every tiny detail, and when they piece it together and express it, there's this consistency that you probably will not find with any other function.

    Hence double edged sword, because it is both rich in logic and yet poor in recognition. Fi for example often leaves an individual feeling misunderstood, but Fi is not a function of truth except what truth can be understood as incredibly individual to that person and their values.
    I would say it is still as much as a double edged sword as any other function (as primary, mainly). To go with your Fi example, a type dominant in this function has the freedom to live on the terms on their values, and find what these are. But they must understand that other people may not have the same opinion on the importance of these values, and thus this is Fi's 'second edge'.

    It doesn't really have anything to do with the logical constructs of the human world, it's systems and it's behaviour, whereas Ti is both personal and not at the same time in this respect.
    Even though sometimes it may seem personal (because of expressive Fe), Ti is thought of as the most detached function. A user of Ti may choose to focus on the human world, peoples behavior etc, but it will always be looked on in this objective manner, almost like a lab experiment.

    None of these really produce the same 'truths' that Ti does on a regular basis.
    Most of the other functions and really used, and don't strive for truth, like Ti does. Different purposes are needed other than truth, which the others are used for, and so it isn't unnecessary to find objective truth. So in this respect it, yes Ti is the only one to gather these truths. But like you said, it is subjective, and specifically Ti is 'subjective thinking', which would conflict with Te. A Te user may be more inclined to disagree with Ti at some points, unlike yourself.

  7. #17
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Bubble View Post
    Could it be that you have Ti, but in a lower position, so that you don't pick it up right away, but when it is stated, you see their perspective, and so you are convinced? I think it may be a different situation from the point of view of a strong Te user.
    Actually yes I am aware of this, that is the point of the thread. In fact that is where the idea stems from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Bubble View Post
    I would say it is still as much as a double edged sword as any other function (as primary, mainly). To go with your Fi example, a type dominant in this function has the freedom to live on the terms on their values, and find what these are. But they must understand that other people may not have the same opinion on the importance of these values, and thus this is Fi's 'second edge'.
    Well yes, this is true and could be applied to all functions, but I was getting tired of adding 'of course this is the same for all functions to different extents' onto each generalised comment I make.


    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Bubble View Post
    Even though sometimes it may seem personal (because of expressive Fe), Ti is thought of as the most detached function. A user of Ti may choose to focus on the human world, peoples behavior etc, but it will always be looked on in this objective manner, almost like a lab experiment.
    Good point, I agree, it seems personal but is not. Or at least if it is, that is lead through inferior Fe, not a quality of Ti itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Bubble View Post
    Most of the other functions and really used, and don't strive for truth, like Ti does. Different purposes are needed other than truth, which the others are used for, and so it isn't unnecessary to find objective truth. So in this respect it, yes Ti is the only one to gather these truths. But like you said, it is subjective, and specifically Ti is 'subjective thinking', which would conflict with Te. A Te user may be more inclined to disagree with Ti at some points, unlike yourself.
    Well this is where I don't agree as such. There is a reason I put quotation marks around the truth in that last paragraph. For me truth is a perspective rather than an inherency. Ti is able to discern truths that are accurate to collective assumptions about reality.

    But ultimate truth in and of itself is an almost unobtainable objective. There is actually a quote from the x-files, (of all places), that reminds me of this although perhaps it describes Ni more than anything else:

    I'm struck by how much you're like Ahab. You're so consumed by your personal vengeance against life - whether it be it's inherent cruelties or it's mysteries - that everything takes on some warped significance to fit your megalomaniacal cosmology. The truth or the white whale - what difference does it make?

    Both obsessions are impossible to capture.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  8. #18
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    Ti is indeed a double-edged sword; it boils objective "truth" down to essence, leading to an often scientific, terse and unapologetic judgment (that often comes out "wrong").

    In the last paragraph, there are at least five traits cited that could easily piss a "normal" person off.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I ask this question because after spending time on here around Ti users who are either primary or secondary, (ENTP/INTP/ISTP/ESTP), there seems to be an element of...frustration that appears to stem from understanding what could be called an evidential truth through the logic of Ti, but which others often miss.

    I'm not sure, this is obviously just an observation skewed by my view on this, but I would like to hear from the types I mentioned and even others on this subject.
    It's some sort of melancholy. You basically just want to get to the meatball, but most people make the package so complex that you wonder, if its really necessary.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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