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  1. #11
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Could you not become a woman? Don't let some pesky y-chromosome push you around.

    When you say "better able to be yourself if I were a female" are you referring to your behaviour being more socially acceptable or that being a male dulls the effects of being an NF, asserting that males have a mental pre-disposition towards thinking? In the case of the former I say just do it. Don't lessen yourself expecting the masses to welcome you in with open arms because they won't. They will take something if you have something to offer and drop you when you don't. Live for yourself and your own dreams. Cry if you want to or don't if you don't want to. If it's the latter then try and get in touch with your emotions more as I have read being out of touch with emotions and personal identity is a problem nines face.
    i dont let the social expectations affect me, or at least i try but its difficult to allow my emotions run freely when im not 100% certain on them combed with the social expectations of not being allowed to show them.

    but yeah i think theres also that biological factor. say, if my body stayed exactly same, male, but brains changed to female, then i think the emotional integrity it would give me would be enough to overcome the expectations of having to be an unemotional machine.

    and cause i have the male brains i have, i think it makes me too serious towards my Fe and thus its not allowed to flow freely cause i take it too serious, however i realize this is a trait of every Je secondary.

    but being So first is probably the reason im death aware of how people expect me to be unemotional like all males are supposed to be. even if i dont give a damn about those expectations, the pressure is sometimes too great and then i kill whatever feelings i wouldve had. i guess this is more of a finnish culture thing than broad all males thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Honor View Post
    I don't think that INFJ is the image of femininity, although I have met a lot of ISFJ and INFJ men who say they're more "emotional" than "the average guy" and don't like that about themselves. I can only think of one INFJ guy I know right now, and I can tell he's very sentimental about his friends when he lets his guard down, but other than that, he doesn't come off as emotional. They keep things under wraps, those INFJs.

    I don't find much of a conflict between being ENFP and being a woman, although I do think it would be much more convenient socially to be an FJ of some sort.
    in the classical christian model it is. i dont know what type has taken over as the image of feminity if its not infj anymore. in my mind infj will always be the image of ideal feminity.
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  2. #12
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    They both mean little.

    If I were to boil it down id say out of the two my gender means unwelcome erections at bizarre times. Or maybe my gender is at such an advantage that i'm not even aware of it's value to me?
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  3. #13
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    you know, this is one of my silly thoughts again.

    but i was thinking, since infj is the image of feminity and all, would i actually be better able to be myself as a female? mayhaps, but what would be different if you were changed opposite gender?

    i would definately try the differrent vocals at voice acting and singing, aand like all males, satisfy my curiosity by touching private places to feel how different it would be.

    along my primary changes would be, that id be more often in my state of emotional display, which already is one of the things i most appreciate by this reality.

    what else these things mean to me, is, that im silly like the way i am. althouggh thats probably just my nineness, other male infjs have been rather too upstuck serious comparing to myself.
    I think it's natural for male Fs and female Ts to wonder this. I've actually spent a whole lot of time on a similar thought experiment. But what distinguishes my conclusion from yours, is: I'm comfortable with my gender, I'm happy being female, but in this society and social structure I think that my thoughts and values might be better received from a man, than a woman. Most of the people I try to be like, and most of my childhood heroes, are men, and most of my values are more traditionally "masculine", but coming from me, those embodied behaviors/values are likely received by men as "bitchy", or at least "sassy" or something similarly condescending (like "aww, look at that young woman trying to be assertive!"), when what I'm looking for is "That person is a force to be reckoned with".
    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Or maybe my gender is at such an advantage that i'm not even aware of it's value to me?
    Sadly, you are spot on.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  4. #14
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    I have seen MBTI statistics before that state that something like 70% of F's are females and vice versa for T. So the social generalities may come because there just are more F females and T males.

  5. #15
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I see my type as a kind of shorthand for describing certain things about me. Gender does kind of the same thing, I guess. I think being a female F or male T is easier than being a female T or male F because it works better with our culture's gender roles, stereotypes, and socialization.
    I like this description of type. I could give someone a list of my most significant qualities, or I can just tell them I am INTJ type, with a bit more of A and less of B. I don't say the same of gender, though. Beyond physical realities, anyone who makes assumptions about me based on gender is as likely to be mistaken as correct. But then I have never felt limited by gender roles, stereotypes, and socialization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    but yeah i think theres also that biological factor. say, if my body stayed exactly same, male, but brains changed to female, then i think the emotional integrity it would give me would be enough to overcome the expectations of having to be an unemotional machine.
    What do you mean about "male brain" - the physiology and chemical distribution of male vs female, or something else?

    If anyone thinks males are unemotional, just observe a bunch of guys watching the superbowl, or even competing over some attractive girl.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I think it's natural for male Fs and female Ts to wonder this. I've actually spent a whole lot of time on a similar thought experiment. But what distinguishes my conclusion from yours, is: I'm comfortable with my gender, I'm happy being female, but in this society and social structure I think that my thoughts and values might be better received from a man, than a woman. Most of the people I try to be like, and most of my childhood heroes, are men, and most of my values are more traditionally "masculine", but coming from me, those embodied behaviors/values are likely received by men as "bitchy", or at least "sassy" or something similarly condescending (like "aww, look at that young woman trying to be assertive!"), when what I'm looking for is "That person is a force to be reckoned with".
    I'm neither happy nor unhappy with my gender. To me, it is just like my hair color, handedness, or physical build. It is what it is, and I will make the most of it. Every male F and female T who freely exercises and expresses their preferences makes the world a more hospitable place for those who follow. You don't have to be male to be T or have T values/qualities any more than you have to be white to be financially and professionally successful.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #16
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Type and gender well, mostly this impacted my social relationships. as an Ne dom (i think most would agree to that yes?) I was considered very dorky, weird, nerdish etc especially in high school. I was quite awkward with girls probably worse than @Fireshield86 tbh. So, I went on a rampage once I broke free of the institutional madness that is organized religion (my Ne could not sustain the dichotomies between spirituality, biological processes, and an abstract mathematical structure to the universe) I went crazy and tried to find the patterns in social relationships. This led to a lot of -forced- (by me) interpersonal interaction until I became so adept at social situations that I could consistently pull perhaps the most superficial party girl type () the esfp. In fact, I am sooooo good at this that many people on this forum still believe me to be enfp Now, I am reorienting me Ne and Ti to organizing my mind for the consumption of programming and hope to be working in that field in a few years with the long term goal of running my own prosocial bioengineering firm.

    How does all of this impact gender and gender perception? Hmm, I believe that Ne types tend to have a more "slight" build compared to ESXX which is part of why I work out (a trick I learned from ESXX). Still at times when I am in situations with very tall, muscular, and affluent men in competition with them for mates I can feel a bit overshadowed. So.. when I am at my best I utilize my Ne and do something unique and ballsy that no one else is willing to do to draw attention, then I pick out the hottest girl who responded and I go up directly to her and flirt shamelessly and make her laugh with a big grin on my face (I like to project an aura of you're mine/I don't care who is watching me/let's have fun!).

    So, I quite like my Ne and the chaotic beauty is creates in the world around me like a mandelbrot set of dopamine ecstasy as two protons expelled at each coupling site creates the mode of force, the embryo becomes a fish that we don't enter until a plate, we're here to experience evolve the little toe, atrophy, don't ask me how I'll be dead in a thousand light years, thank you, thank you. Genesis turns to its source, reduction occurs stepwise though the essence is all one. End of line.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  7. #17
    Gone Aesthete's Avatar
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    I've considered what I would look like if I were to be a woman, but I don't have any inclinations to change my sex. I'm quite fine as an INFP male.
    Great men are like eagles, and build their nest on some lofty solitude.

    Schopenhauer

  8. #18
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    but i was thinking, since infj is the image of feminity and all, would i actually be better able to be myself as a female? mayhaps, but what would be different if you were changed opposite gender?
    Interesting that you wonder if you'd be 'better able to be yourself' as a female infj than a male one. I obviously have no clue whatsoever on what it's like to be a male infj, but I think ultimately the same issues and stumbling blocks arise no matter what the gender [but more to your point, societal expectations may be skewed for a certain gender]. Now, I am not saying the timing of the issues will not vary, as, for example, maybe (and again, I wouldn't know) a male infj finds it more difficult attracting people of the opposite sex, at least initially, due to societal expectations or whatnot, and maybe a female has an easier time of it. (both big maybes) But I think the long-term would be the same for both, in that it doesn't matter the gender, same interpersonal issues will surface. And the same personality traits will be unpalatable to some people, palatable to others, once in a relationship.

    I'm also not sure I agree that the infj is the 'image of femininity' in any archetypal sense (I'd throw out other F types before infj). And any sort of linkage with feminine/masculine can cause a different set of issues, if the other person is lulled into having expectations of that, based on more superficial things, and is then left with a rude awakening when they realize the infj isn't by default amenable and 'feminine'. I'm reminded of one of my infj friends who has mentioned that in some of her relationships, the guys have become almost... disapproving? angry? confused? when they realized she wasn't automatically compromising, that she'd actually push back if necessary. I suppose the same could happen to a T from the opposite tack... perhaps being viewed negatively or 'unhealthy' if they're actually expressing themselves... when in fact it's a facet of their personality, and part of a cohesive whole, what makes them them.

    Anyhow... for most of my life I was blissfully unaware of type, and also often felt disconnected from peers of my same gender (and still do) and was not pursued romantically, so I don't know that either of them overly 'mean' much to me. So any 'disconnection' I may feel isn't specific to gender - it occurs across. Not one moreso than another.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  9. #19
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post

    What do you mean about "male brain" - the physiology and chemical distribution of male vs female, or something else?

    If anyone thinks males are unemotional, just observe a bunch of guys watching the superbowl, or even competing over some attractive girl.
    males have significantly lower emotional integrity than females, the other differences i consider miniscule in comparison.
    And thats the only thing i hate about being a male, since feelings are practically the thing i live for, yet i find it hard to access my feelings.. Cause theres too much negativity(pain) and i dont like it. Typical maximun serotonin ennea dominant <.<

    super bowl? Competing over females? I rather have females compete over me, and i can be spotted crying in the public for weirdest of reasons, i guess that counts for atypical male? =) and i disdain sports which prove no intellectual stimulation.

    typically its the T types who compete over Fs so its interesting to have it reversed. Although its a rather private competition considering multiple types whod match me at the same time would be extremely unlikely.

    @cascadeco

    i just think its frustrating to have to realize im not the person ive been molded into my whole life, having to do alot of work to rediscover my true self and even then more work, of getting used to being my real me.

    And i think theres a difference between being used and feminity, look at all the classic historic feminity idealisations, of males being the knight who would love these perfectly idealized females instead of making them submit.

    I dont think the submissive housewife ideal has anything to do with feminity, rather just the arrogance of sensors.
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  10. #20
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    super bowl? Competing over females? I rather have females compete over me, and i can be spotted crying in the public for weirdest of reasons, i guess that counts for atypical male? =) and i disdain sports which prove no intellectual stimulation.
    My point here is that men display plenty of emotions, even T men, just not the same emotions in the same settings as the average (presumably F) woman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    i just think its frustrating to have to realize im not the person ive been molded into my whole life, having to do alot of work to rediscover my true self and even then more work, of getting used to being my real me.
    Many people are not the person they were molded into. The sooner they discover that and learn to be themselves, the better.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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