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  1. #81
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    *cracks knuckles*

    Tertiary and inferior Fi also sometimes lead TJs to view large numbers of people as "troglodytes": soulless or stupid creatures whose rotten situations in life derive only from their own intrinsic rottenness-of-soul. To take a comic example, Lex Luthor's lamentation in Superman, "Why is the world's greatest criminal genius surrounded by nincompoops?"
    As an Inferior Function, Fi typically leads ETJs to acts of self-destructive hedonism, creation of opera-like drama in their lives and the lives of those around them, obsession with "integrity" (like going down with the ship), instant and irresponsible abandonment of anything they don't like (the opposite of going down with the ship), and bizarre solitary acts of atonement for the harms they've done to others. Sometimes inferior-Fi leads ETJs to preach and even practice a sort of hyper-selfishness, e.g. Ayn Rand and the Landmark Forum. "I'm doing fine, so why should I give a damn about you?" (Very different from highly developed Fi, which leads you to see all people as connected and the highest joy of life as the experience of that connection.)
    Is it possible to take an Extraverted Feeling attitude alone on a desert island?

    Extraverted feelers are forced to, but they might very well quickly become neurotic. If they had at least one other person to orient to they would probably be ok, or at least stable. Long term effects of isolation would be interesting (possibly look at psychological records of people who have been kept in solitary (some of which would probably be Fes)).

    To maintain sanity, they would most likely turn to romantic fantasies (esp. romantic fantasies of being rescued), etc....
    This might actually force them to focus on improving themselves.
    You'll find the most meat for this thread in descriptions involving tertiary and inferior functions, by the way. They're usually the most "reaching" and groan-worthy.

    Oh, and Socionics is ripe, too.

    As far as deconstructing these sorts of assertions? I'll leave it up to someone else if they want; I'm satisfied with "they're patently ridiculous."

  2. #82
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    *cracks knuckles*






    You'll find the most meat for this thread in descriptions involving tertiary and inferior functions, by the way. They're usually the most "reaching" and groan-worthy.

    Oh, and Socionics is ripe, too.

    As far as deconstructing these sorts of assertions? I'll leave it up to someone else if they want; I'm satisfied with "they're patently ridiculous."
    Very impressive, did you find all of these utterances on this forum?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Very impressive, did you find all of these utterances on this forum?
    Nah. If our intent is to point out what is and isn't sound typology, then we ought to pull out good examples regardless of the source.

    I'm not out to deride the forum, after all

  4. #84
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    Nah. If our intent is to point out what is and isn't sound typology, then we ought to pull out good examples regardless of the source.

    I'm not out to deride the forum, after all
    In that case, I'm curious about what your source was.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  5. #85
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    "Feeling is only concerned with how we emote towards an entity"

    "Uninhibited feeling gravitates towards things that make one feel good"

    "...the INFP will have many ways, some highly ingenious to appease his/her whims.
    Thus, the distinction between a good cause and a bad cause is....based on what 'feels good', hence, whatever agrees with the INFP's instincts is good and what does not, is not. Quite elaborate self-deception takes place as a result of the work of Ne-Te to convince the INFP that the cause is noble rather than a mere appeasement of a whim."

    "For this reason, the INFP engages the emotions of others for self-serving ends, strictly to receive positive emotion in return. This is the striking difference between the Thinking oriented type and the INFP, the former deems assisting others as a good thing in itself, and the INFP merely uses this activity as an instrument of appeasement of impulse."

    "One may be attracted to the INFP based on what they appear to be on the surface, specifically, deep and highly emotionally sensitive. Deep? There is depth of sentiment no doubt, but can we regard this as legitimate depth as such a quality is associated with a virtue of character? Not at all, as the causes the INFP fights for are not deep at all, because the causes are determined by Thinking (as Thinking decides what the world is) because Thinking is very primitive and subordinate to the impulses of the INFP, the causes this type feels passionate about are often unremarkable at best, and opprobrious at worst.

    ....they were not fighting for anything noble, they did not even know what they were doing, they were merely acting out on their impulse to try to be liked by others, as they usually do."

    "[the INFP] ostensibly has all the qualities one may hope to see in a friend/partner, but alas, they are illusory. This type appears to be deep, yet is actually very superficial. This type appears to be sensitive, yet is primarily driven to appease his/her own impulses. Appears to be moderately intelligent, as Introversion is mistaken for reflectiveness, yet that is not the case also"

    "Hence, what exactly is good about the INFP? ....of course, because the INFP cannot easily stand up for his or her needs, he/she cannot insist on engaging the emotions to any greater degree than the Thinker finds desirable."

    "The whole temper of mind of the INFP and the personalities associated with is aimed at the sole end and goal of magnifying passion and supressing the intellect, and precisely this is what prevents the type from having the strength of character one needs in order to command respect from others."

    "the INFP is unable to have a clear view of who they are and how they ought to live their lives, and as a result lack a backbone. Their life tends to be an incessant overflow of torrential, self-serving and in almost all notable respects vulgar passion."

    "The only exception to the above is the case of the INFP with a well developed Thinking faculty which is indeed rare.
    Only very few INFPs with a well developed Te will be able to overcome most of the maladies of their temperament."

    The feeling = emotion assertions are tired & inaccurate. It doesn't matter how stiff & formal you word it....it's still not correct.
    The rest amounts to: "Fi is selfish and all about following & justifying your own emotional whims! INFPs are stupid, shallow, self-serving, spineless emos!"
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  6. #86
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    What I ask you to do this in thread is the following, cite absurd typological statements without making any reference to their authors. The purpose of this thread is to shed light on how "folk typology" arises and hopefully motivate our members to think about this topic with greater care and precision. Individuals who uttered absurdities are more than welcome to make an appearance in this thread to defend their position or clarify their line of reasoning, however, it is not up to us decide if their identity is to be revealed.

    When you cite the preposterous typological statement that was made on this forum, be sure to explicate your rationale for deeming it to be non-sensical and remain open to any possible objections that may arise.
    Welcome back, SW. Surprised to see you (when I saw someone quote you, I thought it was a necropost); thought you had abandoned this place for good.

    I might as well give some of the stuff I was handed when solidifying my type, by what we could call the "King and Queen of Folk Typology". Everything you have complained about can be gotten from this rather influential source. It's what I immediately thought of when you coined the term "folk typology" and began coomplaining about it, before you left the board.
    This is what I was grappling with when I first arrived here five years ago, and I could even see the influence in many people here back then.

    The proofs (on another site, years ago) were that I was ENFP instead of INTP. The tactic used was to get me upset, and then point out all the "functions" that surface. However, what ended up happening is taking the shadow reactions (which surface under stress), as my primary functions, and then forcing the primary functions into the shadows, based on overgeneralized behaviorial definitions; and then my behavior overall when not under stress was fit into it:

    •"volume of posts, and the increased enthusiasm whenever more people were participating" [proof of "Extraversion"]

    •I "opposed" the person disputing me, so Ni must [by inference] be my "Opposing Personality Complex"

    •Te with "childish enthusiasm" [i.e. "Puer"]; "connecting the dots"
    -(was backing up Ti conclusions, along with Ne; and "connecting the dots" is more Ti "matching". It was an INTERNAL judgment process)

    •deeply interested in discovering "identity", therefore, must be NF
    -(Probably deduced by my struggling to determine for myself which type or the other; especially with all the cloudy input I was receiving).

    •"keen interest & motivation in helping others on the list (NF temperament value)"
    -Actually, it was Ne "parenting" (auxiliary complex); trying to get others to understand certain possibilities in the theories
    -Yet also mentions Berens being mistaken for an INFP because of "helping others", which is here associated with "true" "aspirational" [inferior] Fe. The attribution of the same behaviors shifts at will.

    •"deep interest & motivation around spirituality (temperament value)";
    "spotted the Fi in "parenting others" around religious beliefs."

    -This because I mentioned being in religious debates. What was not known was the difficulty I had with faith, which I used debating to try to assure myself. (And debating is not realy the NF's field of interest in religion. Wouldn't that be more an NT thing?)

    •"Finally realized it was the missing puzzle piece to why he was always promoting his own system at the expense of others"
    -[i.e. the "enthusiasm" again. Notice, Fi portrayed as doing something "at the expense of" others!]

    •"high value for harmony (temperament value)".
    -Ignored is the "informing" (people-focused) dimension of the Interaction Styles

    •NT's are like "vulcans" or "Spock".
    -actually came right out and said this!

    •"feeling preference became very obvious in encounter; he was clearly wounded and hurt"

    -But then, when I questioned that:
    "Certainly Thinking types get their feelings hurt. But they don't like to show it. "Mastery" and "self-control" are their top values. Competence is everything.

    -But "like to" show it, and it it erupting out of control (which is what proves Feeling as unpreferred, especially inferior) are two different things. Quenk's "inferior Fe grip" perfectly fit there.

    •When I was emotionally responding, I wasn't "analyzing" [Ti], "inferring" [Ne], or "connecting" [Fe], but rather "valuing" [Fi]
    -Here, Berens' terms for trying to simplify the functions are turned into "key-word fallacies", and again, ignored was that this was a stressful reaction, when shadows would naturally appear.

    •"encountering 'critical parent' in Fe when he criticizes respecting rank and privilege"
    -rank and privilege would be more Te

    "I have never been irritated to experience an INTP's introverted Thinking. I could sit at the feet of an NTP for a lifetime and not lose interest."

    This in contrast to:
    "my own peculiar allergic reaction to him"

    -I see less than this garnering infractions over on PerC, so that person better stay off of there! They call it "typism"!

    telling me, despite my making a point of saying I didn't care. That's evidence of the puer
    aeternus, and a LACK of extraverted Feeling, since it ran roughshod over my stated wishes. You demonstrate a decided LACK of extraverted Feeling. You are not SENSITIVE to extraverted Feeling issues.
    -what about the INFERIOR? Not like I was claiming it was dom. or aux.
    And nobody "LACKS" a function; it's just less conscious. This basically is the main source of the whole notion of the "eight functions" being "things" like "gears" or "skills-sets" that we "use" or "lack".
    Here, the entire Jung/Beebe theory is turned on its ear! (and Jung and Beebe end up getting the blame for this, from the cynics of the theories).

    •"Explanations explanations explanations; ALWAYS a rationale for everything -- extraverted Thinking."

    [Because I protested my motives being judged]:
    •"more evidence that you don't display the Theorist [NT] pattern"

    •I was too "credulous" for an NT, for I readily accepted type theories (including from "amateurs" online), rather than "starting from scratch" as Ti "always" does.
    -Actually, NT's value "mastery", and could care less about "credential", so if a person seems to know their stuff, that's what matters most

    •I got along with the NFP's on the list "so there may be affinity around ego-compatible processes"
    -(Yes; for Ne, but NOT Fi/Ti, where there was truly conflict).

    •Fighting back by commenting on the person's character is appointing myself the person's "Conscience (Fi parent?)"; and also "ad hominem attacks" which are "Not very Theorist-like behavior".

    •Words like "guilt," "feeling put upon," and "imposes" all seem to emanate from a set of inner values (Fi)

    •"'Asperger's.' I daresay that's a symptom of your introverted Feeling."
    Rather than saying what it IS, let's look at what it's NOT.

    It does NOT seem to be "Considering others and responding to them," which happens to be a definition of extraverted Feeling. Ergo, I submit that "Asperger's" indicates a LACK of extraverted Feeling consciousness.
    •"Asperger's, ADD, bi-polar, borderline, OCD, ODD are all negative labels and putdowns for perfectly healthy type processes."

    -Asperger's is an Autism spectum disorder, that often causes social problems. Here, the traits are being disclaimed as a "disorder", or "negative label", but nevertheless attributed as character flaws that are being associated with certain type's preferences [i.e. where Fe falls in the eight archetypes].
    If this were the case, then only TJ's and FP's would have AS. But INTP is one of the most common types to be diagnosed with it (and again, Fe as inferior will fit in with poor social skills).

    •"I would even go so far as to suggest introverted Thinking in the Trickster position.
    Let's face it, those labels are 'categories.' And introverted Thinking is about 'categorizing'."
    [i.e. negative categorizing="shadow" Ti; Beebe uses the example of Freud naming a boy's attraction to his mother after "Oedipus"]
    -They weren't MY categories, and neither are they negative categories!

    Ti seems to be "Trickster," as he struggles to "analyze" all the different personality "systems" and relate them together (doesn't readily pick up the "underlying principles," but instead seems to often be "pushing letters around" [Te] and hasn't yet grasped the "meaning" of some things. "Misled" easily with Ti; does better when things are "spelled out."
    •My type is brought into question; I'm still early in learning the full theory, and being bomarded with all these distorted concepts, and yet, my dominant preference is questioned as such:
    Wouldn't Heroic Introverted Thinking have categorized this already....? So when somebody claims to have heroic introverted Thinking, and yet they can't figure out which category things go into, and they aren't even sure of their own type yet -- doesn't that make you wonder.....? Is it even possible that Ti is an ego-INcompatible (shadow) process....?
    •"So what's coming up for me is that when it's a principle, it just IS. When it's Te, it's about the 'why';
    it's about the 'because'; it's about the 'reasons for'."

    -But Ti has to deal with the why, the because and reasons for in making its JUDGMENTS based on "what is". It's not a mere perception function; and basically, Ti and Fe had been described basically as perception, "getting inferences", and such.

    •"There's something about Te that's ‘slower’ than Ti. It takes a lot longer to get all its ducks lined up.
    Me -- I am QUICK. ISTP is even quicker."

    -So we see Ti defined in terms of speed of analysis (something I've never seen in any reputable source). Again, it's treated like a perception function!
    What finally answered this for me was Haas & Hunziker's Building Blocks of Personality Type, where apart of the description of Ti was a section called "From the Inside", which included one significant example (p.89):

    All my life I thought I might have some kind of learning disability. Almost everything in school seemed to come
    much slower to me than it came to others. Elementary school, in particular, rewards the kids who raise their hands
    or call out the answers first. Now I realize that I just needed time to let my internal logic do its thing
    Then, the partner later comes in with another assessment:

    ["puer Te"] He does not keep his Thinking to himself but shares it liberally.
    Apparently he works at a full-time job, posts extensively to several other email lists besides this one, seems to dominate this list by replying at length to every message posted here by anyone [gross exaggeration!], and still has energy left over to go meet other type users in person for the first time. That doesn't seem much like introvert behavior to me.

    In contrast, it seems that his Feeling and Sensing are more often flowing inward. I believe I'm seeing strong introverted Feeling in the way he's made a value-based decision about his type pattern and seems uninfluenced by anything suggested to him, no matter how reasonable or logical. It's clear this decision is "out of our reach" and not up for consideration.
    What was never answered was why an NFP would "value" being an INTP, when the latter's dom. Ti leaves them cold. That would be an internal logical "valuation", not a Feeling judgment!

    Furthermore, I've seen what appears to be him "judging" others according to an internal standard unknown to any of us. Had he a preference for extraverted Feeling, he would be much more open to the opinions of others in both these regards, and more inclined to self-disclosure and "connecting".
    Again, I never claimed to "prefer" it, but if inferior (which is not "preferred"), it would still be very weak, and largely unconscious. Plus, the "connecting" or "Self-dosclosure" I did do was attributed to Ne as "dominant" and Te.

    •I "just knew" everyone was against me. This proves Ni as "opposing" (rather than "Critical" or Senex)
    -in actuality, it could be either; the difference is that the OP lies on the spine, dealing with ego's relation to self, and the Senex is the arm, deling with ego's relation to others. Here, it was clearly about others!

    •Also, cites Beebe as "associat[ing] histrionics" with Fe; but this is intepreted as "critical parent", (and of course, we all know INTP's don't act this way).
    -However, this again totally ignores the "inferior grip" described by Quenk.

    •Because [other] people didn't understand my analysis, it felt "very 'slippery' and more confusing than clarifying"; that is, on MY part. So I was "deceiving myself" about INTP, and actually "valued" the type, all the more proving Fi.

    So this is stuff that I was often thought "everyone should hear". Especially since it emanated from apparently high places, and has so pervaded the whole online community, and so many people struggle with it.
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  7. #87
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    I remember some in general.

    An INTP is an INTP if they question being INTP and are never certain they are.
    Fi is about arbitrary and selfish values and Ti is about being objective and principled.
    Ti seeks truth; Ti cuts through all the bullshit; Ti simplifies out the extraneous and incoherent; and the other functions don't. - Oh hail noble Ti!
    Extroverts aren't thoughtful and generally don't think before they act.
    Ni dominants can predict the future and know shit without reason or inclination.
    Introverts are passive-aggressive and extroverts are assertive.
    Extroversion means you get energies from peoples and introversion means peoples takes away your energies. *hiss* *my precious energies*
    Sensors pay attention to details and are then predictable and stupid; intuitives think about the bigger picture and are then unpredictable and smart.

  8. #88
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Thank you for all of your contributions. I will go over the latest posts and justify their placement in that threads, all of the recent examples we've cited here have been excellent and relevant. However, this one might just top them all.

    Quote Originally Posted by The less said about the author, the better
    oh, how wrong, very wrong you are.

    did you ever wonder where the thiefs, rapers and liars came from? i did, and i found out theres an type called istj who are all liars, and some if not majority choose the amoral path, in which they start using their lies for personal profit.

    and then theres their soulmate match, esfp, who are all amoral and wont hesitate to destroy you if it pleases them some how.

    and the rest of sensors are somewhere in between the realm of hell and heaven, more to the hell side than intuitors however, intuitors who have Fi in their type are amoral usually to sensors oversensitivity of ego issues and other ridiculous sensor issues.

    typing people by their morals is one of the easiest typology methods. each type has their specific pitfalls.

    infjs evil is lack of care for sensors norms, if unhealthy that is. in comparison, i think intuitors are saints.

    I will stay passive for now, would someone here like to underline the key theoretical deficiencies that plague the above-quoted post?
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  9. #89
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    ^ that's too fucking easy...

    this is just "N's are superior - Sensors are dumb" complex that somehow got painted over "Fe is superior Fi is egoistical" complex, while lacking any understanding of either, presumably written as a defensive reaction to type-blaming, which ends up a tad ironic - given their understanding of MBTI their capacity to identify their own type correctly should be held to extreme scrutiny, whichever type they think they are.

    where did you find this?

  10. #90
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post

    where did you find this?
    I found it on this forum.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

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