What I ask you to do this in thread is the following, cite absurd typological statements without making any reference to their authors. The purpose of this thread is to shed light on how "folk typology" arises and hopefully motivate our members to think about this topic with greater care and precision. Individuals who uttered absurdities are more than welcome to make an appearance in this thread to defend their position or clarify their line of reasoning, however, it is not up to us decide if their identity is to be revealed.
When you cite the preposterous typological statement that was made on this forum, be sure to explicate your rationale for deeming it to be non-sensical and remain open to any possible objections that may arise.
Welcome back, SW. Surprised to see you (when I saw someone quote you, I thought it was a necropost); thought you had abandoned this place for good.
I might as well give some of the stuff I was handed when solidifying my type, by what we could call the "King and Queen of Folk Typology". Everything you have complained about can be gotten from this rather influential source. It's what I immediately thought of when you coined the term "folk typology" and began coomplaining about it, before you left the board.
This is what I was grappling with when I first arrived here five years ago, and I could even see the influence in many people here back then.
The proofs (on another site, years ago) were that I was ENFP instead of INTP. The tactic used was to get me upset, and then point out all the "functions" that surface. However, what ended up happening is taking the shadow reactions (which surface under stress), as my primary functions, and then forcing the primary functions into the shadows, based on overgeneralized behaviorial definitions; and then my behavior overall when not under stress was fit into it:
•"volume of posts, and the increased enthusiasm whenever more people were participating" [proof of "Extraversion"]
•I "opposed" the person disputing me, so Ni must [by inference] be my "Opposing Personality Complex"
•Te with "childish enthusiasm" [i.e. "Puer"]; "connecting the dots"
-(was backing up Ti conclusions, along with Ne; and "connecting the dots" is more Ti "matching". It was an INTERNAL judgment process)
•deeply interested in discovering "identity", therefore, must be NF
-(Probably deduced by my struggling to determine for myself which type or the other; especially with all the cloudy input I was receiving).
•"keen interest & motivation in helping others on the list (NF temperament value)"
-Actually, it was Ne "parenting" (auxiliary complex); trying to get others to understand certain possibilities in the theories
-Yet also mentions Berens being mistaken for an INFP because of "helping others", which is here associated with "true" "
aspirational" [inferior] Fe. The
attribution of the same behaviors shifts at will.
•"deep interest & motivation around spirituality (temperament value)";
"spotted the Fi in "parenting others" around religious beliefs."
-This because I mentioned being in religious debates. What was not known was the difficulty I had with faith, which I used debating to try to assure myself. (And
debating is not realy the NF's field of interest in religion. Wouldn't that be more an NT thing?)
•"Finally realized it was the missing puzzle piece to why he was always promoting his own system at the expense of others"
-[i.e. the "enthusiasm" again. Notice,
Fi portrayed as doing something "at the expense of" others!]
•"high value for harmony (temperament value)".
-Ignored is the "informing" (people-focused) dimension of the Interaction Styles
•NT's are like "vulcans" or "Spock".
-actually came right out and said this!
•"
feeling preference became very obvious in encounter; he was clearly wounded and hurt"
-But then, when I questioned that:
"Certainly Thinking types get their feelings hurt. But they don't like to show it. "Mastery" and "self-control" are their top values. Competence is everything.
-But "like to" show it, and it it
erupting out of control (which is what proves Feeling as unpreferred, especially inferior) are two different things. Quenk's "
inferior Fe grip" perfectly fit there.
•When I was emotionally responding, I wasn't "analyzing" [Ti], "inferring" [Ne], or "connecting" [Fe], but rather "valuing" [Fi]
-Here, Berens' terms for trying to simplify the functions are turned into "key-word fallacies", and again, ignored was that this was a stressful reaction, when shadows would naturally appear.
•"encountering 'critical parent' in Fe when he criticizes respecting rank and privilege"
-rank and privilege would be more Te
•
"I have never been irritated to experience an INTP's introverted Thinking. I could sit at the feet of an NTP for a lifetime and not lose interest."
This in contrast to:
•
"my own peculiar allergic reaction to him"
-I see less than this garnering infractions over on PerC, so that person better stay off of there! They call it "typism"!
•
telling me, despite my making a point of saying I didn't care. That's evidence of the puer
aeternus, and a LACK of extraverted Feeling, since it ran roughshod over my stated wishes. You demonstrate a decided LACK of extraverted Feeling. You are not SENSITIVE to extraverted Feeling issues.
-what about the INFERIOR? Not like I was claiming it was dom. or aux.
And nobody "LACKS" a function; it's just less conscious. This basically is the main source of the whole notion of the "eight functions" being "things" like "gears" or "skills-sets" that we "use" or "lack".
Here, the entire Jung/Beebe theory is turned on its ear! (and Jung and Beebe end up getting the blame for this, from the cynics of the theories).
•"Explanations explanations explanations; ALWAYS a
rationale for everything -- extraverted Thinking."
[Because I protested my motives being judged]:
•"more evidence that you don't display the Theorist [NT] pattern"
•I was too "credulous" for an NT, for I readily accepted type theories (including from "amateurs" online), rather than "starting from scratch" as Ti "always" does.
-Actually, NT's value "mastery", and could care less about "credential", so if a person seems to know their stuff, that's what matters most
•I got along with the NFP's on the list "so there may be affinity around ego-compatible processes"
-(Yes; for Ne, but NOT Fi/Ti, where there was truly conflict).
•Fighting back by commenting on the person's character is appointing myself the person's "Conscience (Fi parent?)"; and also "ad hominem attacks" which are "Not very Theorist-like behavior".
•Words like "guilt," "feeling put upon," and "imposes" all seem to emanate from a set of inner values (Fi)
•"'Asperger's.' I daresay that's a symptom of your introverted Feeling."
Rather than saying what it IS, let's look at what it's NOT.
It does NOT seem to be "Considering others and responding to them," which happens to be a definition of extraverted Feeling. Ergo, I submit that "Asperger's" indicates a LACK of extraverted Feeling consciousness.
•"Asperger's, ADD, bi-polar, borderline, OCD, ODD are all negative labels and putdowns for perfectly healthy type processes."
-Asperger's is an Autism spectum
disorder, that often causes social problems. Here, the traits are being disclaimed as a "disorder", or "negative label", but nevertheless attributed as
character flaws that are being associated with certain type's preferences [i.e. where Fe falls in the eight archetypes].
If this were the case, then
only TJ's and FP's would have AS. But INTP is one of the most common types to be diagnosed with it (and again, Fe as
inferior will fit in with poor social skills).
•"I would even go so far as to suggest introverted Thinking in the Trickster position.
Let's face it, those labels are 'categories.' And introverted Thinking is about 'categorizing'."
[i.e. negative categorizing="shadow" Ti; Beebe uses the example of Freud naming a boy's attraction to his mother after "Oedipus"]
-They weren't MY categories, and neither are they
negative categories!
•
Ti seems to be "Trickster," as he struggles to "analyze" all the different personality "systems" and relate them together (doesn't readily pick up the "underlying principles," but instead seems to often be "pushing letters around" [Te] and hasn't yet grasped the "meaning" of some things. "Misled" easily with Ti; does better when things are "spelled out."
•My type is brought into question; I'm still early in learning the full theory, and being bomarded with all these distorted concepts, and yet, my dominant preference is questioned as such:
Wouldn't Heroic Introverted Thinking have categorized this already....? So when somebody claims to have heroic introverted Thinking, and yet they can't figure out which category things go into, and they aren't even sure of their own type yet -- doesn't that make you wonder.....? Is it even possible that Ti is an ego-INcompatible (shadow) process....?
•"So what's coming up for me is that when it's a principle, it just IS. When it's Te, it's about the 'why';
it's about the 'because'; it's about the 'reasons for'."
-But Ti has to deal with the why, the because and reasons for in making its JUDGMENTS based on "what is". It's not a mere perception function; and basically, Ti and Fe had been described basically as perception, "
getting inferences", and such.
•"There's something about Te that's ‘slower’ than Ti. It takes a lot longer to get all its ducks lined up.
Me -- I am QUICK. ISTP is even quicker."
-So we see Ti defined in terms of
speed of analysis (something I've never seen in any reputable source). Again, it's treated like a
perception function!
What finally answered this for me was Haas & Hunziker's
Building Blocks of Personality Type, where apart of the description of Ti was a section called "From the Inside", which included one significant example (p.89):
All my life I thought I might have some kind of learning disability. Almost everything in school seemed to come
much slower to me than it came to others. Elementary school, in particular, rewards the kids who raise their hands
or call out the answers first. Now I realize that I just needed time to let my internal logic do its thing
Then, the partner later comes in with another assessment:
["puer Te"] He does not keep his Thinking to himself but shares it liberally.
Apparently he works at a full-time job, posts extensively to several other email lists besides this one, seems to dominate this list by replying at length to every message posted here by anyone [gross exaggeration!], and still has energy left over to go meet other type users in person for the first time. That doesn't seem much like introvert behavior to me.
In contrast, it seems that his Feeling and Sensing are more often flowing inward. I believe I'm seeing strong introverted Feeling in the way he's made a value-based decision about his type pattern and seems uninfluenced by anything suggested to him, no matter how reasonable or logical. It's clear this decision is "out of our reach" and not up for consideration.
What was never answered was why an NFP would "value" being an INTP, when the latter's dom. Ti leaves them cold. That would be an internal
logical "valuation", not a Feeling judgment!
Furthermore, I've seen what appears to be him "judging" others according to an internal standard unknown to any of us. Had he a preference for extraverted Feeling, he would be much more open to the opinions of others in both these regards, and more inclined to self-disclosure and "connecting".
Again, I never claimed to "prefer" it, but if inferior (which is not "preferred"), it would still be very weak, and largely unconscious. Plus, the "connecting" or "Self-dosclosure" I did do was attributed to Ne as "dominant" and Te.
•I "just knew" everyone was against me. This proves Ni as "opposing" (rather than "Critical" or Senex)
-in actuality, it could be either; the difference is that the OP lies on the spine, dealing with ego's relation to self, and the Senex is the arm, deling with ego's relation to others. Here, it was clearly about others!
•Also, cites Beebe as "associat[ing]
histrionics" with Fe; but this is intepreted as "critical parent", (and of course, we all know INTP's don't act this way).
-However, this again totally ignores the "
inferior grip" described by Quenk.
•Because [
other] people didn't understand my analysis, it felt "very 'slippery' and more confusing than clarifying"; that is, on MY part. So I was "deceiving myself" about INTP, and actually "valued" the type, all the more proving Fi.
So this is stuff that I was often thought "everyone should hear". Especially since it emanated from apparently high places, and has so pervaded the whole online community, and so many people struggle with it.
