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  1. #181
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    there is a gray area to be walked here - pushing it to either extremes will break the system:

    if every pattern and behavior can be linked to any type, how do you state that "someone is not type X"? everyone is every type.
    if you eliminate natural human behaviors from various types, a type is going to be an empty silhouette with no person to apply to.
    I'm not sure what you mean by pattern, but every behavior CAN be linked to every type. The types are then distinguished much less by what they do than by why the do it, and in many cases, how. Greenfairy is right in that each type tends to have certain clusters of behavior, but observing that behavior does not guarantee that the individual demonstrating it is of that type.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #182
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post

    if every pattern and behavior can be linked to any type, how do you state that "someone is not type X"? everyone is every type.
    Accurate type identification requires an analysis of fundamental cognitive tendencies, an analysis of behaviors is merely an unwarranted shortcut that frequently leads to howlers thoroughly documented in this thread.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Accurate type identification requires an analysis of fundamental cognitive tendencies, an analysis of behaviors is merely an unwarranted shortcut that frequently leads to howlers thoroughly documented in this thread.
    and you determine which cognitive tendencies those are by what choices they make, what they do & what they express.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by pattern, but every behavior CAN be linked to every type. The types are then distinguished much less by what they do than by why the do it, and in many cases, how. Greenfairy is right in that each type tends to have certain clusters of behavior, but observing that behavior does not guarantee that the individual demonstrating it is of that type.
    i agree that we're looking for general predispositions, and you can't determine much of a person's general dispositions by a single events (you can determine a lot more if they share with you how they process those event after, but even then). what i was talking about though - and perhaps phrased poorly - was the generalizations of functions to the point where every behavioral predisposition can be associated with every type.

    this actually has become a noticeable problem when you take the full spectrum of typology practiced here as a whole (which neither of them are meant for, but since we're using all of them...): MBTI, enenagram, tritype, instinctual variants.

    does a predisposition tendency to act socially towards being liked come from someone being SO-dom or are they SX-dom FJs? is it dominant enough to call them e3/e2s? is someone persistent & reliable with their work practices an STJ keeping to the plan? an SP-dom afraid of loosing their grounding? maybe it's an FJ seeking what is expected of them at home (which you don't see at all)? but wait, we forgot shadow functions... maybe it's a really depressed ESxP? or maybe it has nothing to do with it because its a behavior and we can't possibly describe what would go through someone's head and motivate them and enable them behind a behavior... maybe their doing it out of compassion to a mouse that is threatened by aliens waiting to pull the trigger the moment they would slack off change plans or be spontaneous...
    we don't even need to look that far - take @greenfairy - some think she's an NTP because she tends to break the information down and work along lines of synthetic thinking, others say she has to be an FP because what she view's as a Ti like analysis is often applied to the realm of metaphysics, spirituality & philosophy? because Ti can't possibly work such soft and esoteric paradigms or have eclectic beliefs ... others say those tendencies are the realm of Ni because apparently NJs are mystics so if your a mystic you have to be an NJ.... or... you'd get be caught & fired by the council of NJs.. or something.... but wait, did we forget loops? we have to bring up loops - so Ni Ti.. she's an ISTP/INFJ! let us embrace the old tradition and say she's an unhealthy STP because she doesn't follow into our paradigms and that means she's possessed by something unnatural and is obviously sick and needs us to cure her with god damn leeches in her face and ritualistically dancing the makarena while giving her therapy and meds to cure her evil unnatural loop...btw greenfairy did you do shopping this week? did you have a list in your head of what you needed? sorry, we can't have TPs/FJs having such well thought out plans in advance, if you did you must have Te there...

    you see my point on how ridicules this can get?

  4. #184
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Haha Mane, thanks for your insightful analysis as always.

  5. #185
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Found a good one yesterday:

    no one thinks they're an so/sp, because everyone desires sex.
    The person who wrote this post is not the person doing typology wrong -- but they bring up a common misunderstanding on what it really means to be sx-first or second.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


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  6. #186
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    @Mane this is similar of course to my own complaints as you are well aware. Since I've repeated them ad nauseum.

    But I have realised that it is best to sit down and discuss how a person comes to their conclusions, that usually gives at least some insight into a process, that merely observing behavior does not. Conclusion > reasoning behind it.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
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  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    @Mane this is similar of course to my own complaints as you are well aware. Since I've repeated them ad nauseum.

    But I have realised that it is best to sit down and discuss how a person comes to their conclusions, that usually gives at least some insight into a process, that merely observing behavior does not. Conclusion > reasoning behind it.
    ah, how can one forget the active NeFe'rs... i think there's like 6 of you now? NFish SFJs / NTPs? maybe you need to covert more and make your stand for the 17th type... but the system can't be broken, so you have to be, even though in so many fashions you seem healthier then most actual ENTP/ESFJs and don't show any of the fuckedup non stop spasm-ish run around in mental circles paralysis signs that genuine "extrovert-extrovert" loop's report having - hey i fit into the ENTP description like a dick into a custom made flashlight, i've actually had experiences that can best be explained as NeFe loops... to frame those times as your norm and what you are all the time? it doesn't fucking work...

    honestly, there are some things about the standard ways in which we do typology that should genuinely belong in this thread.

  8. #188
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    and you determine which cognitive tendencies those are by what choices they make, what they do & what they express.



    i agree that we're looking for general predispositions, and you can't determine much of a person's general dispositions by a single events (you can determine a lot more if they share with you how they process those event after, but even then). what i was talking about though - and perhaps phrased poorly - was the generalizations of functions to the point where every behavioral predisposition can be associated with every type.

    this actually has become a noticeable problem when you take the full spectrum of typology practiced here as a whole (which neither of them are meant for, but since we're using all of them...): MBTI, enenagram, tritype, instinctual variants.

    does a predisposition tendency to act socially towards being liked come from someone being SO-dom or are they SX-dom FJs? is it dominant enough to call them e3/e2s? is someone persistent & reliable with their work practices an STJ keeping to the plan? an SP-dom afraid of loosing their grounding? maybe it's an FJ seeking what is expected of them at home (which you don't see at all)? but wait, we forgot shadow functions... maybe it's a really depressed ESxP? or maybe it has nothing to do with it because its a behavior and we can't possibly describe what would go through someone's head and motivate them and enable them behind a behavior... maybe their doing it out of compassion to a mouse that is threatened by aliens waiting to pull the trigger the moment they would slack off change plans or be spontaneous...
    we don't even need to look that far - take @greenfairy - some think she's an NTP because she tends to break the information down and work along lines of synthetic thinking, others say she has to be an FP because what she view's as a Ti like analysis is often applied to the realm of metaphysics, spirituality & philosophy? because Ti can't possibly work such soft and esoteric paradigms or have eclectic beliefs ... others say those tendencies are the realm of Ni because apparently NJs are mystics so if your a mystic you have to be an NJ.... or... you'd get be caught & fired by the council of NJs.. or something.... but wait, did we forget loops? we have to bring up loops - so Ni Ti.. she's an ISTP/INFJ! let us embrace the old tradition and say she's an unhealthy STP because she doesn't follow into our paradigms and that means she's possessed by something unnatural and is obviously sick and needs us to cure her with god damn leeches in her face and ritualistically dancing the makarena while giving her therapy and meds to cure her evil unnatural loop...btw greenfairy did you do shopping this week? did you have a list in your head of what you needed? sorry, we can't have TPs/FJs having such well thought out plans in advance, if you did you must have Te there...

    you see my point on how ridicules this can get?
    We do need to take other factors into account though. I disagree.

  9. #189
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Has anybody here defined what it means to "do" typology?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Has anybody here defined what it means to "do" typology?
    bingo! that is the question:

    if functions are nothing but semantics - turn of the century neologism - then we would be making no assumptions. can you ask "is someone like this because he is a giant or is he like this because he is tall?" <- there would be no conflict, one attribute is contained within the other.

    a lot of people seem to agree that it is just that - a semantic framework - and yet somehow we ask "is someone considering others doing it because they are an so dom, a strong Fe user or an e3/2"? that make sense if functions where actual features of the mind - cognitive mechanisms - but it doesn't work if we take them at face value as mere descriptions.

    so are we analyzing how someone works or are looking for the right words to describe them?

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