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  1. #141
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poimandres View Post
    Do Blacks copy ESTP black culture? Do white people sometimes even copy it too?

    Because it seems very much like they all want to be gangsters, and your archetypal gangster is a black ESTP (or ISTP I guess).
    Thank you for your unwitting contributions to this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poimandres View Post
    Much appreciated, it takes enormous talent to reinvigorate a discussion without devoting the slightest effort to doing so. You're a very special person and I'll make it a habit to analyze your quoted posts with greater diligence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    let me help you with that:

    Jaguar's truth, noun, a half-assed construct built upon easily countered pseudo-intellectual arguments maintained in spite of reason and rationality through the savoring of ignorance and the warm acceptance of easily identifiable fallacies. Synonyms: bullshit, mental masturbation, nonsense.

    Thank you, but this display is more appropriate for another thread I started yesterday. Please re-submit it there, it might win you a nomination or two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    so at the absolute minimum, we have a typology of ego's - a typology matching some people's sense of identity
    That's an interesting take on how typology should not be done, albeit unless you plan on implementing the method you're denouncing, please re-locate your comments to my other thread I apprised you of.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  2. #142
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that seems a bit off - just because something doesn't tell you everything there is to know about a person shouldn't be the basis for assuming that it tells you absolutely nothing
    But how do you sort out the unknown which could apply and that which doesn't? It's smarter to figure it out instead of assume...
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    It's smarter to figure it out instead of assume...
    neither - you try the assumptions out and take a chance that you might be wrong.

  4. #144
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    SW - witty

    ok, bringing it back on topic, i've recently found one that fits here quite well (and probably in the other thread):
    Wow, you associate black and white thinking with "J"? That shows that your understanding of typology is quite rudimentary, black and white thinking is a symptom of intellectual immaturity. Any person with highly developed critical thinking skills generally understands that most dichotomies are false and have a more nuanced understanding of theoretical topics they comment on. One's level of intellectual sophistication has little to do with the P/J discrepancy, it would probably be more applicable to the N/S discrepancy, if anything. However, even there, the assessment is rather superficial because a Sensing preference generally does not prevent one from developing their critical thinking capabilities.
    while superficially the statements are true,it somewhat ironically misses the nuance of what it attempts to be critical of, and so doesn't actually discount the possibility that certain ways of thinking (possibly represented by functions) can be more inclined towards different fallacies then others - meaning that the process of developing critical thinking would require overcoming a different set of natural inclinations. unless we assume any of the types would have a fully developed capacity for critical thinking, it stands to reason there would be plenty members of every type that haven't (as demonstrated by the quote), providing plenty of opportunities for people to interact with them, observe them making certain errors of understanding and associate those with that type.

  5. #145
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    SW - witty

    ok, bringing it back on topic, i've recently found one that fits here quite well (and probably in the other thread):


    while superficially the statements are true,it somewhat ironically misses the nuance of what it attempts to be critical of, and so doesn't actually discount the possibility that certain ways of thinking (possibly represented by functions) can be more inclined towards different fallacies then others - meaning that the process of developing critical thinking would require overcoming a different set of natural inclinations. unless we assume any of the types would have a fully developed capacity for critical thinking, it stands to reason there would be plenty members of every type that haven't (as demonstrated by the quote), providing plenty of opportunities for people to interact with them, observe them making certain errors of understanding and associate those with that type.

    Deft repartee, nearly a cogent analysis of the above cited criticism. The author of the passage whom you've quoted stated that equating black and white thinking with the J dichotomy of the MBTI displays a serious misunderstanding of typology. It seems that you are suggesting this criticism is inadequate, but how does the criticism that you've cited represent an instance of abuse of typology? If you make a typological fallacy and I mount an inept criticism of your statements, my claim in and of itself would not be regarded as an instance of abuse of typology. In other words, by conducting an untenable assessment of another person's typological is not an act of doing typology: it is only an act of criticizing how others do it. There is a fundamental distinction between engaging in a task and engaging in criticisms of another's performance, the latter clearly cannot be construed as an act of erroneous performance of a task. To assert that it can be would be just as preposterous as to maintain that an incompetent judge of figure-skating is himself a poor figure-skater because his evaluations of the skaters' performances are manifestly inaccurate.

    To answer your claim, it is true that a temperament may lead one to be more likely to commit one fallacy as opposed to another, however, these are merely predispositions. Whether or not a person commits a fallacy is a reflection of their critical thinking capabilities and the predispositions of type will not exert a significant influence there, especially when we are dealing with a rather crude fallacy of bifurcation or black and white thinking. On average, people with weak critical thinking skills tend to make fallacies that their type predisposes them to and people with strong critical thinking skills tend to avoid them. Hence, it would be a mistake to assert that a certain kind of fallacious thinking is to be first and foremost associated with a particular set of cognitive dispositions because the plausible association can only be made with people of the type in question whose critical thinking skills are deficient. Clearly, because such people cannot be presumed to represent the key cognitive predispositions of the type that they have, the association between a certain fallacy and the cognitive dispositions of a certain type is simply unwarranted.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Deft repartee, nearly a cogent analysis of the above cited criticism. The author of the passage whom you've quoted stated that equating black and white thinking with the J dichotomy of the MBTI displays a serious misunderstanding of typology. It seems that you are suggesting this criticism is inadequate, but how does the criticism that you've cited represent an instance of abuse of typology? If you make a typological fallacy and I mount an inept criticism of your statements, my claim in and of itself would not be regarded as an instance of abuse of typology. In other words, by conducting an untenable assessment of another person's typological is not an act of doing typology: it is only an act of criticizing how others do it. There is a fundamental distinction between engaging in a task and engaging in criticisms of another's performance, the latter clearly cannot be construed as an act of erroneous performance of a task. To assert that it can be would be just as preposterous as to maintain that an incompetent judge of figure-skating is himself a poor figure-skater because his evaluations of the skaters' performances are manifestly inaccurate.
    this isn't really the argument i was making (i don't see much value in arguing that someone is incompetent unless i'm debating whether i should hire them) , but while we're at it: an incompetent judge of figure-skating is judging a skill set whose quality can be divorced form how well one understands it, so even without understanding why he's good and applying the same criteria to the students he can still be good. in contrast, if your judging people's physics tests and you corrected people that E=MC^7000, then either you or einstein really screwed up. likewise with typology, when you judge how it's applied you are contrasting someone else's understanding of it with your own - you are demonstrating your application of typology in the process, your showing what assumptions your making and your showing your take on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    On average, people with weak critical thinking skills tend to make fallacies that their type predisposes them to and people with strong critical thinking skills tend to avoid them. Hence, it would be a mistake to assert that a certain kind of fallacious thinking is to be first and foremost associated with a particular set of cognitive dispositions because the plausible association can only be made with people of the type in question whose critical thinking skills are deficient. Clearly, because such people cannot be presumed to represent the key cognitive predispositions of the type that they have, the association between a certain fallacy and the cognitive dispositions of a certain type is simply unwarranted.
    it would be wrong to assume that people of a certain type would make the disposed error in judgement without knowing anything about their capacity for critical thinking prior to them making one at all, but once they are making the error in judgement it wouldn't be incorrect to make note of it's predisposition. let's say you had two groups of L.D. students, both can overcome it and become very proficient in related fields and it would be incorrect to assume they couldn't - but once you see someone isn't overcoming it, it wouldn't be wrong to diagnose what L.D. they have based on identifying the obstacles they have most difficulty with. doing the first isn't the same as doing the later.

  7. #147
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    let's see: i explained why your argument was incorrect
    Posting a quote and a link to Myers and Briggs.org had nothing to do with forming an argument. If you don't know The MBTI instrument sorts for preferences and does not measure trait, ability, or character, why are you in this discussion? Go get educated. You don't know the basics, so to compensate for the ignorance you got on your horse and rode through the town square shouting "Fallacy! Fallacy! Ad hominem!" That cheap tactic is not a substitute for knowledge.

    Furthermore, you posted:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane
    what would you call being a [insert function]-dom if not a trait?
    If that's what you want then look into the Big 5 which is based on traits: extraversion, openness to experience, conscientiousness, neuroticism and agreeableness.
    If you get a wild hair up your ass and decide to try something different (like learning), go here: http://psychology.about.com/od/perso.../a/bigfive.htm

    I'll post this—again—for the misguided lad:

    The MBTI instrument sorts for preferences and does not measure trait, ability, or character.

    Get it through your head - it's not about traits.
    I'm going to bring this back to why I cranked up this old thread to begin with. This post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nonsense
    You don't remind me enough of Elfboy in my opinion to be an ENFP.
    If an explanation is actually necessary for why it is in this thread, then some people should just forget about Typology and take up basket weaving.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    The MBTI instrument sorts for preferences and does not measure trait, ability, or character.

    lets be clear about this:
    trait,Noun: A distinguishing quality or characteristic, typically one belonging to a person.


    so when your stating that MBTI doesn't describe personality traits....

    you are stating that this:
    xs are less interested in developing plans of actions or making decisions than they are in generating possibilities and ideas. Following through on the implementation of an idea is usually a chore to the x. For some xs, this results in the habit of never finishing what they start. The x who has not developed their Thinking process will have problems with jumping enthusiastically from idea to idea, without following through on their plans. The x needs to take care to think through their ideas fully in order to take advantage of them.
    is not a set of characteristics distinguishable from this:
    xs are very career-focused, and fit into the corporate world quite naturally. They are constantly scanning their environment for potential problems which they can turn into solutions. They generally see things from a long-range perspective, and are usually successful at identifying plans to turn problems around - especially problems of a corporate nature. xs are usually successful in the business world, because they are so driven to leadership. They're tireless in their efforts on the job, and driven to visualize where an organization is headed. For these reasons, they are natural corporate leaders.
    ...you are stating that the MBTI, a typology aiming to distinguish between different personality types belonging to different people, doesn't describe distinguishing characteristics belonging to different people...

    ...do you see the problem there?

  9. #149
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    so when your stating that MBTI doesn't describe personality traits.
    Who stated it? Hell, you can't even get the original source correct.
    Go email the Myers & Briggs foundation and tell them they're full of shit.

    Knock yourself out.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    not to be picky here... (ok, yeah, I'm going to be picky here because it warms the cockles of my heart... whatever) but isn't ALL of the stuff about personality theory pseudo-intellectual and unable to be proven with hard science or even a rigorous statistical study of things?

    I mean, you can't call something bullshit if you're defending bullshit on your own in the same breath
    Haha. Just go check some academic databases.... most of it was inconclusive, had little to correlation, and was from the 80s to the early 2000s. Nardi seems the most legit though with the neuroscience. This is why I consider this site a "guilty pleasure" lol

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