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  1. #21
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    Cool, some points of view to try to reconcile.

    I'm all for collectively trying to find a holistic picture of just what the hell's going on and where we can and should head.

    The balance between expanding and pruning is a matter of sampling the entire space of what's out there, discovering patterns, and honing in on the important patterns; then to continue to gather some outliers every once in a while, but to not spend one's whole life doing so. A variety of activities could--but not always--very well contribute to some purpose. Figuring out the best approach takes some exploration and some discretion.

    It does seem that some balance is required on an individual level. But whether or not that balance happens on an individual level, it ought to happen on a societal level as per @AphroditeGoneAwry's point:
    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I challenge that. We live in a family and community for a reason. It's so we don't have to do everything, but can do what we are best at. This interconnects us. One man bands are never as enthralling as symphonies.
    I like that analogy.

    I figure that some of us are best at gathering a bunch of samples around the space; some of us are best at interpreting those samples, or a subset of them, and practicing discernment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    But then the corollary would be: if things are working for you, keep doing them.

    Sounds like the epitome of a jack of all trades, master of none.
    I agree with both of your statements here. If things are working well for you, definitely keep doing them. If you have a good direction and a good path, keep marchin'--we have only so many steps we can take. "Working" is also dependent upon the individual's standards and the situation that the individual is measuring.

    And also, being too scattered is a bad thing. If I'm applying for a job as a Goodyear tire valve inspector, my knowledge of tango probably won't factor in. Perhaps dancing increases my manual dexterity, which might be useful for the job. Perhaps a coworker and I could bond over a love for tango and thus strengthen our team. Outside of that? Probably not much cross-domain application for my knowledge of tango.

  2. #22
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Am I perceiving perceivers saying that perception is the key? You can even see the mix of objective and subjective. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But it does, if true, give some context to this "work on" idea? "Work on" starts sounding more like "reconcile" or "translate". Or, better, "adjust (yourself) to allow expression of" (granted, though, that's perceiver talk again...

    I think it makes less sense to talk of strengths than of structure of strengths. The first is hubris, mostly, while the second is opportunity.

    (See the perceiver talk? Denigrating talk of strengths arises as rejection of over-assertiveness--primary judgment--in favor of chances to see, aka "opportunity". It never ends.)

  3. #23
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    It does seem that some balance is required on an individual level. But whether or not that balance happens on an individual level, it ought to happen on a societal level as per AphroditeGoneAwry's point:
    Just what that balance needs to be on an individual is the million dollar question. I should have mentioned in my last post that I do agree about overspecializing in a narrow technical field. I was advocating specialization on a much broader level, in the sense that it is OK and even wise to figure out and pursue what we are good at and enjoy. That must be balanced with some basic proficiency in other areas, e.g. everyone needs to maintain some level of physical fitness even if they are not an athlete. How much is enough, though, and across how broad a range of off-preference areas? Must one also be reasonably conversant with art, literature, politics, psychology, child care, gardening, and how to cook omelets? Is it OK to leave some areas entirely unexplored except from what little one absorbs by osmosis?

    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    I agree with both of your statements here. If things are working well for you, definitely keep doing them. If you have a good direction and a good path, keep marchin'--we have only so many steps we can take. "Working" is also dependent upon the individual's standards and the situation that the individual is measuring.

    And also, being too scattered is a bad thing. If I'm applying for a job as a Goodyear tire valve inspector, my knowledge of tango probably won't factor in. Perhaps dancing increases my manual dexterity, which might be useful for the job. Perhaps a coworker and I could bond over a love for tango and thus strengthen our team. Outside of that? Probably not much cross-domain application for my knowledge of tango.
    To add to my statement, I usually find it both enjoyable and productive to work on areas that are already working well, to make them even better. The difference is that I will identify those areas to improve or expand by asking: "what will help me reach my goals more effectively", not "what am I really bad at". This is how I prioritize where to focus my attention.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I appreciate this analysis; it is definitely something worth considering. I'm not sure the analogy is apt, though, since vehicle design must be based on the requirements: is it a race car (speed paramount), or an armored personnel carrier (durability/protection paramount). If you're building, say, the batmobile, you might want equal amounts of each, but either way, there is a spec driven by the function. To follow the analogy, I would need to ask "what is my function"? Through my choice of education, profession, and avocations, I have developed a spec that emphasizes certain parameters over others, which should be OK as long as I don't try to use the product (myself) for an unsuited purpose (enter an APC in the Indy 500).
    except that they both benefit within their own criteria:
    • by learning how to strengthen the car, mr. speedy will be able to drive faster in total by being better armed to handle risky turns.
    • by learning how to make it more aerodynamic, mr. armor will be able to drive safely to more destinations & still be able to justify the cost.


    to unravel the analogy:
    • by learning to acknowledge feelings that do not make sense, the thinker will not only be able to better navigate emotional layers, but also recognize their own biases and core reasons affecting their judgement & conclusions, gaining clarity in the rational layers.
    • by learning how to acknowledge thoughts that don't feel right, the feeler will not only be able to better navigate the rational layers, but also recognize how to avoid creating situations that end up generating points of view or experiences that realistically don't comply with their intents and feelings, gaining coherence in the emotional layers.



    the advantage you gain IS within your own criteria, undoing the repression mechanisms enable you to be a more competent thinker and a more competent feeler, regardless of which one represents your starting point. because whether your judgement functions are reflect information (TiFe) or project information (FiTe), you are becoming a better judger.

    for a better analogy: you can polish one side of the window all you want, eventually gaining clarity means getting to the side harder to reach, because even if each side has a different name, in the end of day it is the same window.

  5. #25
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What is the balance between developing one's strengths and addressing one's weaknesses? In a leadership class I took a couple years ago, we were told that no one becomes successful by working on their weaknesses; we do so by developing and harnessing our gifts.
    One's aim may not be success and competence but rather harmony and balance, or happiness, or reaching a given "above average" level in many different activities.

    Outside of that? Probably not much cross-domain application for my knowledge of tango.
    Maybe your knowledge of tango will make you encouter the woman of your life during a dance, and she's casually full of money...and you don't need to work as a tire valve inspector anymore
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  6. #26
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    One's aim may not be success and competence but rather harmony and balance, or happiness, or reaching a given "above average" level in many different activities.
    This is my aim in part. I see things that are "wrong" that I cannot fix. Part of developing my tertiary and inferior was learning the degree to which I could fix them, which was a much higher degree than if I tried a logical and analytical approach.

    Maybe your knowledge of tango will make you encouter the woman of your life during a dance, and she's casually full of money...and you don't need to work as a tire valve inspector anymore
    It's sort of like that - I learned salsa, not tango. But the real benefits are very different: exposure to lots of worthwhile things in life that you never knew existed, friends you never would have met, useful skills that you never would have thought were useful. We INTJs especially can act like we've read the "spoilers" of life, and automatically know beforehand what is fun and worth our while and what is not, even when we've never seriously tried. You can only have that "spoiler" level of knowledge AFTER living through an experience, at which point it isn't really spoilers any more, but wisdom.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #27
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    BTW, in the context of typology, is there a significant difference between understanding a person and knowing about (or at least subscribing to a model of) unconscious tendencies?

    Naturally it appeals to the desire to "see what's really there", but still, it seems to me the unconscious is vastly underrated. It seems like it's, y'know, unconscious.

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