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  1. #1
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Default Pathology in our midst

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wisdom of the Enneagram, P.91;

    As we learn to become more present, the positive qualities of the type in our Direction of Integration naturally begins to arise. When this happens, the limitations of the average range of our own type become painfully apparent. This gives us more incentive to stay with our practice and to recognize when we are slipping into the automatic compulsions of our type. Thus, we could say that the Direction of Integration represents the antidote to the fixated states of our type.

    One of the central tenets of the Enneagram is that people of all nine types have different health levels, 1 is that of optimal psychological well-being or integration, and conversely 9 represents a pathological or a disintegrated condition. The main implication of the principle of Enneagram Health-levels is that an individual who is healthy has the freedom to utilize all nine aspects of their personality and he/she is generally not confined to the main repertoire of the type that most accurately portrays the personality of that individual. Conversely, just the opposite holds true for an extremely unhealthy individual.

    As we all are aware, MBTI is more than a personality theory to many members here, quite a few in our community regard it as a religious faith that they adhere to with the zealous scrupulosity of a fundamentalist. These individuals interpret even the slightest insinuation that their type is deficient as a personal insult, clearly, there is no doubt that these people's profound attachment to their four-letter code plays a cardinal role in their self-concept.

    That leaves us with one obvious question, if these people apparently lack the freedom to use the myriad of facets of their personality, does it imply that they may be in the thrall of profoundly self-destructive condition? If we accept the central tenet of the Enneagram regarding health-levels and the key characteristics of the most unhealthy levels of each type, the answer to that question becomes self-explanatory.

    Should we really go so far as to suspect that well over a quarter of the users on this forum are pathological?

  2. #2
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    Yes, many forum members follow Typology like a religion, not just as a general guiding star, but literally like the letters are their shephard.

    What's funny though is that a true INFP or whatever for instance would often be very understanding and accepting of those who are different or even in opposition to them, in which the INFP may try to harmonize and make peace - but under your definitions, the pathological INFPs on this site, which there could be quite a few under those terms, would judge and condemn others who they do not deem to fit in with their type as inferiors and outcasts.

    So I would say Typology systems can be taken too far, in which they become tools of separation and misunderstanding, whereas ideally they should help us come to appreciate one another and our unique gifts.

    I'm fairly sure enneagram and instincts also play a role in the immense diversity we can see within various individuals of the same MBTI type, so that 4 letter code alone by no means is a sufficient explanation to account for the whole of the individual.

    And as a side note, I am happy to see my alchemical wizard powers over life and death are able to not only bring the ancient raptors back to life from eons past, but also quite literally resurrected the originator of forum philosophy back to action - and also, if you are not INTP, then I would go as far as to say nobody is, but are you really 5w6 so/sx, or was I inspiration for your enneagram and instincts (and also, if you are wondering, my top 3 personality styles are Idiosyncratic, Solitary, and Adventurous, should you be wondering about other factors in the personality equation)?

  3. #3
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    Yes, many forum members follow Typology like a religion, not just as a general guiding star, but literally like the letters are their shephard.

    What's funny though is that a true INFP or whatever for instance would often be very understanding and accepting of those who are different or even in opposition to them, in which the INFP may try to harmonize and make peace - but under your definitions, the pathological INFPs on this site, which there could be quite a few under those terms, would judge and condemn others who they do not deem to fit in with their type as inferiors and outcasts.

    So I would say Typology systems can be taken too far, in which they become tools of separation and misunderstanding, whereas ideally they should help us come to appreciate one another and our unique gifts.
    I'm fairly sure enneagram and instincts also play a role in the immense diversity we can see within various individuals of the same MBTI type, so that 4 letter code alone by no means is a sufficient explanation to account for the whole of the individual.

    And as a side note, I am happy to see my alchemical wizard powers over life and death are able to not only bring the ancient raptors back to life from eons past, but also quite literally resurrected the originator of forum philosophy back to action - and also, if you are not INTP, then I would go as far as to say nobody is, but are you really 5w6 so/sx, or was I inspiration for your enneagram and instincts (and also, if you are wondering, my top 3 personality styles are Idiosyncratic, Solitary, and Adventurous, should you be wondering about other factors in the personality equation)?
    Very true!

    And welcome back, SolitaryWalker! Good points.

  4. #4
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    Enneagram does seem to lend itself more to self-betterment. For that reason, I've always enjoyed enneagram books. MBTT seems a bit caught on the self as is, on taking pride in that self.

  5. #5
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    I cannot help but find irony in your assessment of Enneagram. I don't see how ones are optimal and nines are pathological, inherently. It seems you might have retconned the thought with later statements, so I'll blame it on word vomit.


    As for your parting question: I can think of various reasons why someone may take a defensive position against the label they've ascribed to. Perhaps they do see them as personal attacks, as if the sixteen types cover all seven billion of us. I wonder more if it is simply an infancy of knowledge.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    I cannot help but find irony in your assessment of Enneagram. I don't see how ones are optimal and nines are pathological, inherently. It seems you might have retconned the thought with later statements, so I'll blame it on word vomit.


    As for your parting question: I can think of various reasons why someone may take a defensive position against the label they've ascribed to. Perhaps they do see them as personal attacks, as if the sixteen types cover all seven billion of us. I wonder more if it is simply an infancy of knowledge.
    He's not talking about enneagrams 1 and 9, he's talking about health levels 1-9.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    He's not talking about enneagrams 1 and 9, he's talking about health levels 1-9.

    Oh, I completely overlooked that. I associated the stereotypical trait of nine's being dissociative and ones being integrative. Thank you, and my apologies, SW.

  8. #8
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Should we really go so far as to suspect that well over a quarter of the users on this forum are pathological?
    A cursory search through some of the thread titles supports this conclusion also.


  9. #9
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    but are you really 5w6 so/sx, or was I inspiration for your enneagram and instincts (and also, if you are wondering, my top 3 personality styles are Idiosyncratic, Solitary, and Adventurous, should you be wondering about other factors in the personality equation)?
    It would seem so. The psychological repertoire of type 5 describe my cognitive tendencies more accurately than any other. I have very few tendencies that bear a semblance to Enneagram type 4, in fact it is safe to say that with a possible exception in favor of a 2, I have less in common with type 4 than with any other token of the Enneagram system. I am certainly quite far from typing myself as a 6, but it's manifest to me that I have more in common with a 6 than with any other type with the exclusion of a 5. However, the concept of a wing strikes me is rather arbitrary, I am having a hard time discerning the underlying rationale behind the doctrine that our wing can only be that of a numerically adjacent type to our own. For example, it is deeply puzzling that a type 5 cannot have a 7 or an 8 wing. Similarly, an 8w9 strikes me as an incoherent repertoire as does a 2w3. Nonetheless, my understanding of the Enneagram is not nearly as nuanced as my understanding of Jungian typology is, so perhaps there is a perfect good justification for the doctrine that I've just impugned.

    As for my instinctual variants, I am certainly not a self-preservation variant, because I obviously do not gravitate towards the evidently practical activities that are likely to guarantee material comfort and consistent peace of mind. I am clearly not a sexual type either for a number of obvious reasons, so that leaves me with the only option of identifying myself as the social type and that does not strike me as an unreasonable interpretation of my natural cognitive tendencies. I tend to be rather attuned with the social context of my milieu and strive to create an impact, albeit I've done that mostly on a subconscious level when I've published most of my posts that you've recently revived. It is my understanding that the instinctual variant manifests on a profoundly subconscious level and guides our actions in a manner that is nearly irrepressible and evident, by my lights, that seems to explain much of my youthful polemics and the tendency to be rude in controversies. Surely, the appeal to the instinctual variant does not provide a comprehensive or a precise explanation regarding the psychological origins of my behavior, but it offers a viable hypothesis that provides a tentative and a limited explanation with respect to a small part of my motivations.

    Nonetheless, I remain unconvinced that the three instinctual variants that the Enneagram accounts for are exhaustive, I am open to the possibility that there could be many more and there is another variant that describes my fundamental cognitive tendencies with greater precision than the social does.

  10. #10
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    One of the central tenets of the Enneagram is that people of all nine types have different health levels, 1 is that of optimal psychological well-being or integration, and conversely 9 represents a pathological or a disintegrated condition. The main implication of the principle of Enneagram Health-levels is that an individual who is healthy has the freedom to utilize all nine aspects of their personality and he/she is generally not confined to the main repertoire of the type that most accurately portrays the personality of that individual. Conversely, just the opposite holds true for an extremely unhealthy individual.

    As we all are aware, MBTI is more than a personality theory to many members here, quite a few in our community regard it as a religious faith that they adhere to with the zealous scrupulosity of a fundamentalist. These individuals interpret even the slightest insinuation that their type is deficient as a personal insult, clearly, there is no doubt that these people's profound attachment to their four-letter code plays a cardinal role in their self-concept.

    That leaves us with one obvious question, if these people apparently lack the freedom to use the myriad of facets of their personality, does it imply that they may be in the thrall of profoundly self-destructive condition? If we accept the central tenet of the Enneagram regarding health-levels and the key characteristics of the most unhealthy levels of each type, the answer to that question becomes self-explanatory.
    Are you suggesting that a healthy individual should be able to utilize all 9 enneagram aspects of their personality with equal skill and frequency? MBTI, too, contains the idea that healthy development involves becoming more comfortable and proficient with one's less peferred functions. I never understood either system, however, to imply that one will ever be as good with the atypical functions or aspects as with one's native type. That would imply that "healthy" humans are really all the same, and to the extent that we have fundamental and discernable preferences, we are unhealthy. By extension, pathology is just the more extreme manifestation of this.

    While it is silly to take as an insult the claim that a particular type is deficient, such claims are baseless, in either enneagram or MBTI. As anyone with half a wit knows, no type is better than another. Each has its strengths and weaknesses, as both Enneagram and MBTI describe.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    It would seem so. The psychological repertoire of type 5 describe my cognitive tendencies more accurately than any other. I have very few tendencies that bear a semblance to Enneagram type 4, in fact it is safe to say that with a possible exception in favor of a 2, I have less in common with type 4 than with any other token of the Enneagram system. I am certainly quite far from typing myself as a 6, but it's manifest to me that I have more in common with a 6 than with any other type with the exclusion of a 5. However, the concept of a wing strikes me is rather arbitrary, I am having a hard time discerning the underlying rationale behind the doctrine that our wing can only be that of a numerically adjacent type to our own. For example, it is deeply puzzling that a type 5 cannot have a 7 or an 8 wing. Similarly, an 8w9 strikes me as an incoherent repertoire as does a 2w3. Nonetheless, my understanding of the Enneagram is not nearly as nuanced as my understanding of Jungian typology is, so perhaps there is a perfect good justification for the doctrine that I've just impugned.
    I agree with your assessment of wings, though do find 5w6 describes me quite well. The notion of tritype may make more sense, namely the idea that everyone uses head, heart, and gut, and we can identify our preferred "mode" in each area. This explains well a 5 with strong 8 tendencies.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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